A Simple Question

[Joy in the Journey]

That doesn't just jump right out at you as something added by a con man trying to get his hands on your money??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh ?!?!? Who is trying to get money from whom ? You really don't know a thing about Christianity- do you ?

~ Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion has been used for control, power, and wealth for ever. I think I have heard just about every scripture in the bible used for offering calls. If your church doesn't take up offerings and then demand 10 percent of your earnings on top of that than I must exclude you and your church from this. But I have yet to ever set foot in or hear about a church that isn't asking for money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I see it from the other side of it all- see, I'm rather poor and instead of my church demanding 10 % from me as you purport ? They've actually helped me pay some bills and get back on my feet- and all that never asking nor demanding 1 single penny from me...and I can tell you that when I'm in a position to give ? I'm gonna give. Not because I have to, but out of gratitude to the Lord. You still have a lot to learn about Christianity my friend ( that's not a countdown, it's an observation )

God bless,

Tim

[Ovedya]

That doesn't just jump right out at you as something added by a con man trying to get his hands on your money??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh ?!?!? Who is trying to get money from whom ? You really don't know a thing about Christianity- do you ?

~ Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion has been used for control, power, and wealth for ever. I think I have heard just about every scripture in the bible used for offering calls. If your church doesn't take up offerings and then demand 10 percent of your earnings on top of that than I must exclude you and your church from this. But I have yet to ever set foot in or hear about a church that isn't asking for money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Churches run on their members. It's keeps us from naming our sanctuaries after fast food joints. It's bad enough we have to go watch a ballgame at the "Frito Lay" forum, we don't need to attend services at "The Taco Bell, Our Mother of the Sacred Heart" church too!

[Skeptic]

That doesn't just jump right out at you as something added by a con man trying to get his hands on your money??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh ?!?!? Who is trying to get money from whom ? You really don't know a thing about Christianity- do you ?

~ Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion has been used for control, power, and wealth for ever. I think I have heard just about every scripture in the bible used for offering calls. If your church doesn't take up offerings and then demand 10 percent of your earnings on top of that than I must exclude you and your church from this. But I have yet to ever set foot in or hear about a church that isn't asking for money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I see it from the other side of it all- see, I'm rather poor and instead of my church demanding 10 % from me as you purport ? They've actually helped me pay some bills and get back on my feet- and all that never asking nor demanding 1 single penny from me...and I can tell you that when I'm in a position to give ? I'm gonna give. Not because I have to, but out of gratitude to the Lord. You still have a lot to learn about Christianity my friend ( that's not a countdown, it's an observation )

God bless,

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats great. MAN has helped you out, and you will give back in return. There is nothing wrong with that. Just as long as you know it was MAN that helped you out. And it will be MAN taking your money when you are able to give. I grew up in the church. There isn't anything else I could possibly learn. I think for the most part Preachers and leaders of the church mean well but all become corrupt with the power and the money. Sure its great if a church helps people out but thats a small fraction of what the church brings in. Religion is a billion dollar industry, if they were all about helping I would imagine there wouldn't be such thing as a kid going hungry anywhere. Of course we all know where most of that money gos. It doesn't matter how many of these guys are exposed as frauds either, people just think Oh well, there is bound to be a few bad ones. If we can except bad presidents we can except organised religion. I have a lot of stories from growing up in the church that made it hard to see through the colored glasses we were supposed to wear. I wont get into them because I was asked nicely to tone it down a bit, plus I really don't have a problem with any of you here. I truly believe people need something to believe in. It's what keeps us going as humans. Since the beginning people have believed in many Gods, and I guess in a way that belief (if needed by the person or persons) is why we are all still here. Like I tell my mother though. I choose to believe in myself. The most powerful thing a human can do is to know he/she can do anything if he/she believes they can. This is different from what the church preaches because they say you should leave everything up to God. His will be done. Instead of thinking for yourself were supposed to ask for GODs opinion. Oh well I have kind of taken this thread off topic. I should stop now.

[Skeptic]

That doesn't just jump right out at you as something added by a con man trying to get his hands on your money??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh ?!?!? Who is trying to get money from whom ? You really don't know a thing about Christianity- do you ?

~ Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Organized religion has been used for control, power, and wealth for ever. I think I have heard just about every scripture in the bible used for offering calls. If your church doesn't take up offerings and then demand 10 percent of your earnings on top of that than I must exclude you and your church from this. But I have yet to ever set foot in or hear about a church that isn't asking for money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Churches run on their members. It's keeps us from naming our sanctuaries after fast food joints. It's bad enough we have to go watch a ballgame at the "Frito Lay" forum, we don't need to attend services at "The Taco Bell, Our Mother of the Sacred Heart" church too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love this answer.

[Elisabeth]

Organized religion has been used for control, power, and wealth for ever. I think I have heard just about every scripture in the bible used for offering calls. If your church doesn't take up offerings and then demand 10 percent of your earnings on top of that than I must exclude you and your church from this. But I have yet to ever set foot in or hear about a church that isn't asking for money.

Yes, virtually every church and Christian organization takes up offerings. Just like every other non-profit group. Utilities usually aren't donated to a church; cars usually don't get donated to the pastors.

I'm sorry that you have had bad experiences in churches. Just like so many other things in this world, there are good people, and there are not-so-good people. But I can tell you that I have attended a variety of churches over the years, as well as Christian conferences, and yes, every single one has asked for donations but never, ever, ever, has any Christian organization demanded money from me, or snooped into my personal finances.

I guarantee you that most people who go into the ministry -- they are not doing it for the money!!!

Sure, there are crooked "ministers" out there, abusing God's name for their own profit. Just like there are crooked people in every profession. But please do not generalize and lump everyone into the same category.

There isn't anything else I could possibly learn.

Oh friend, please listen to yourself here. No one can make this claim. The most learned person in the world, always has something else new to learn.

It sounds as if you have been hurt by the church, and for that I am very sorry. I've been hurt too. Yes, the church is made up of sinners, and sinners make mistakes. Just like I make mistakes, and just like you make mistakes.

You might consider reading some of Philip Yancey's books. The church he knows now, is vastly different than the church he grew up in ... which drove him away as well.

Grace and peace to you.

[Fiosh]

Does GOD exist is a non-sequitor.

I think you may wish to look up what the term "non-sequitur" means before you use it again.

A non-sequitur is a conclusion that has no logical connection to the premises that lead up to it. Note, that this does not include conclusions that do have a logical connection to their premises but where the logical connection is faulty.

For example:

1) Apples are fruit.

2) A "Granny Smith's" is an apple.

3) Therefore (1 and 2) Giraffes are tall.

The conclusion here is a "non-sequitur" because there is no logical connection between it and the premises that led up to it.

Example 2:

1) Apples are fruit.

2) A "Granny Smith's" is an apple.

3) Therefore a "Granny Smith's" is not a fruit.

This second conclusion is not a non-sequitur, since it is logically connected to the premises - albeit wrongly.

Since "Does God exist?" is a question, and not a conclusion at all, it is utterly impossible for it to be a non-sequitur.

Sorry.

The REAL query has to be Do "ATHEISTS" exist? The query is most trenchant.

That's an easy question to answer... let us look at this step by step.

1) An atheist is a person who does not believe in God.

2) I do not believe in God.

3) Therefore (from 1 and 2) I am an atheist.

4) I exist.

5) Therefore (from 3 and 4) at least one atheist exists.

There you go. Basic logic shows that atheists exist.

Any other logical conundrums you wish me to help you with?

Regardless of whether or not you think that we are correct, or whether or not you think we are justified in our beliefs; simply claiming that we do not exist seems to be - in the most literal sense of the word - a state of denial.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. No matter in the universe has ever been observed to cause it's own existence

2. Matter at some point came into existence

3. Therefore something other than matter caused the existence of matter

I love atheists. I truly do. For the most part they are honest and rational and believe in being kind to each other---cause they think we are all we got.

Therefore I feel intense compassion for them, and God has given me a heart yearning that they come to know Him.

TC, Jesus does exist, He is God, He did die and rise, He is alive! He wants to be your King, your Master, your Lord..........and also your friend, your brother and your Saviour.

If you tried really hard you could probably "prove" that most historical figures didn't exist. They still did.

You can pile "proof" after "proof" that Jesus does not exist. He still does.

Come home, brother.

Your Father stares down the road waiting for you. He will run to embrace you.

The celebration awaits; the angels will rejoice; and you will have the seat of honor.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Joy in the Journey]

I really like your style and approach Fiosh...you have a loving yet truthful way with words

God bless you,

Tim

[Fiosh]

I really

[Token Atheist]

1.  No matter in the universe has ever been observed to cause it's own existence

This is a fundamental error. 100% of the matter that has ever been observed to come into existence has been uncaused.

If you dispute this, please give me an example of matter coming into existence with a cause.

2.  Matter at some point came into existence

If you are actually talking about matter, then it is still coming into existence all around us - and this is uncaused.

Assuming you are talking about space-time, rather than matter, then yes it had a beginning.

However, to talk about anything happening "before" that beginning (which was, after all, the beginning of time) is nonsense.

3. Therefore something other than matter caused the existence of matter

This is the logical conclusion of your premises - unfortunately your premises are incorrect, so the valid logic does not make it true.

[followerofjesus]

so what is antimatter ?