Revelation 9 - Locusts reference

[Selah7]

But look what Jesus tells us:

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.  Luke 10:19 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Selah7 said:

But look what Jesus tells us:

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.  Luke 10:19 

I am not sure if this is your meaning or not? I should refrain from giving my opinion on one of those controversial topics, as there are adamant and differing views.

I think the apostles were given unique gifts to prove they were from the One true living God, to plant the seed, the root, and spread the Gospel. To speak in tongues, communicate the Gospel in the listener’s native language. At their discretion, exorcize demons. The apostle Paul was bitten by a deadly asp, and the asp had no power over him.

I believe these unique gifts given to the apostles ended with the last living apostle John.

Look at the Appalachian Mountain snake-handling churches and how many have died or become disfigured from the serpent venom. I believe those folks to be Christians but are practicing something granted to the apostles only for a specific season and purpose, to plant and encourage churches, spreading the Gospel.

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If it were possible: I take what Jesus said as; true born-again Christians will not be deceived. I don't want to start a discussion on OSAS, but are these people who apostatize truly born again?

Or does it mean that the elect will not ultimately be deceived?  When a person is born-again, do they instantly become impervious to deception?  I think the whole COVID event proves otherwise.  Some saw through it from the start.  Others took longer.  Some still haven't seen through it.

Just a thought.

[Dennis1209]

55 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Or does it mean that the elect will not ultimately be deceived?  When a person is born-again, do they instantly become impervious to deception?  I think the whole COVID event proves otherwise.  Some saw through it from the start.  Others took longer.  Some still haven't seen through it.

Just a thought.

You made an excellent point! We all think differently and imagine how things will unfold. Almost daily, the picture is coming into better focus.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I intended to convey a deception of the true Messiah and Savior, and people are going to accept a false messiah coming in his own name. A true born-again believer filled with the Holy Spirit will not fall for all the lying signs and wonders. To date, have there been any claiming to be Christ, showing great signs and wonders? No.

To paraphrase what I believe Jesus is saying in our vocabulary, use caution and discernment, do not believe these antichrists and their wonders. They will be so strong and convincing; you would be deceived if you were not mine.

What could such a strong deception be that the world believes? The world is going down the proverbial toilet bowl, and people are now screaming for someone to solve our perilous times.

Look at all the conditioning over the decades with superheroes, extraterrestrials, ancient alien programs, etc. All the smartphone videos and testimonies of intelligent and respectable people. The official affirmation by global governments that UFOS exists and cannot be explained.

When will the world's governments admit the existence of perceived extraterrestrials in those UFOS? What happens if or when they are introduced to humanity?

Just some of my wild thoughts.

[abcdef]

The abyss was opened and the locusts were released in 1929.

They drove the people of Israel out of the gentile nations back to Israel to restore Jerusalem.

The descriptions of the locusts are focused on their spiritual qualities.

The weapons they use are spiritual and are designed to attack the children of Israel,  the unbelieving broken branches, the believing branches, and the gentile members of the Pentecost gospel kingdom. The weapons are to kill the body and the soul.

In contrast to the weapons of the locusts are the gospel sword, the shield of faith, the gospel of peace, etc., Eph 6:14-17.

It is a spiritual battle.

-----

It may be considered that a parallel passage to the opening of the abyss in Rev 9:1-11, is the opening of the abyss in Rev 20:7-8.

Both show the opening of the abyss and Satan being released to attack Israel and then restored Jerusalem.

-----

 

[Selah7]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am not sure if this is your meaning or not? I should refrain from giving my opinion on one of those controversial topics, as there are adamant and differing views.

I think the apostles were given unique gifts to prove they were from the One true living God, to plant the seed, the root, and spread the Gospel. To speak in tongues, communicate the Gospel in the listener’s native language. At their discretion, exorcize demons. The apostle Paul was bitten by a deadly asp, and the asp had no power over him.

I believe these unique gifts given to the apostles ended with the last living apostle John.

Look at the Appalachian Mountain snake-handling churches and how many have died or become disfigured from the serpent venom. I believe those folks to be Christians but are practicing something granted to the apostles only for a specific season and purpose, to plant and encourage churches, spreading the Gospel.

Luke 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. -James 4:7 

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

- Ephesians 6:10-20

My firm belief is that we, as Christians, have POWER over the enemy; he is The Adversary, and his name is Satan.  He is also the one that will "fall as lightning from heaven onto the earth.” And the “scorpions” are the fallen angels that will also be booted out of heaven upon the earth, right along with Satan.  

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.   - Revelation 12:9

Edited March 21, 2022 by Selah7

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

My firm belief is that we, as Christians, have POWER over the enemy; he is The Adversary, and his name is Satan.

Yes, although things escalate when the dragon empowers the beast who is granted permission to make war with the saints and overcome them.

Rev 13:7  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Of course that's not the end of the story, neither in the unfolding of Revelation nor in this parallel passage of Daniel.

Dan 7:21-28  "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,  (22)  until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.  (23)  "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.  (24)  The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.  (25)  He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute (afflict, wear out) the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.  (26)  'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever.  (27)  Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'  (28)  "This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart."

[Selah7]

13 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, although things escalate when the dragon empowers the beast who is granted permission to make war with the saints and overcome them.

Rev 13:7  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Of course that's not the end of the story, neither in the unfolding of Revelation nor in this parallel passage of Daniel.

Dan 7:21-28  "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,  (22)  until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.  (23)  "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.  (24)  The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.  (25)  He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute (afflict, wear out) the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.  (26)  'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever.  (27)  Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'  (28)  "This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart."

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Hi, Michael.  Remember how Satan goes after the woman's remnant, God's saints/elect, in the last few verses of chapter 12?  On them, he vows WAR! He despises and is enraged by them!
Rev. 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So what is Satan's strategy for defeating the saints? He has them delivered to councils and puts them on trial in front of the whole world.  And then what happens?  The Holy Spirit speaks through His saints, and the whole world will hear what He (the Holy Spirit) has to say!  

Mark 13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

However, we need to keep in mind that not a single hair on their heads can be harmed (Luke 21:18).  I personally think  it will be a spiritual war and Satan will try to overcome the saints with his lies and deception.  I don’t think that will happen because the Elect will not be deceived.  I also don’t think Satan is going to beat people up physically in front of the entire world; he’s far too clever for that.  After all, he is claiming to be Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords!  

 

[Michael37]

34 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Hi, Michael.  Remember how Satan goes after the woman's remnant, God's saints/elect, in the last few verses of chapter 12?  On them, he vows WAR! He despises and is enraged by them!
Rev. 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So what is Satan's strategy for defeating the saints? He has them delivered to councils and puts them on trial in front of the whole world.  And then what happens?  The Holy Spirit speaks through His saints, and the whole world will hear what He (the Holy Spirit) has to say!  

Mark 13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

However, we need to keep in mind that not a single hair on their heads can be harmed (Luke 21:18).  I personally think  it will be a spiritual war and Satan will try to overcome the saints with his lies and deception.  I don’t think that will happen because the Elect will not be deceived.  I also don’t think Satan is going to beat people up physically in front of the entire world; he’s far too clever for that.  After all, he is claiming to be Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords!  

John is shown the souls of those martyred because they refuse:

• to worship the beast or his image,
• to receive his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands  

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[Retrobyter]

On 3/20/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, I have more questions than answers on these locusts. John’s detailed description of them must be symbolic (comparable) and not literal. As in each illustration, John qualifies it with, as it were; was as the; were as; as the. Analogies.

Shalom, Dennis1209.

No, sir. One cannot just white-wash the whole thing and call it all "symbolic."

Look at the text in the KJV:

Revelation 9:1-12 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 

[So, the first analogy is not about the fifth messenger, the "star," the sky, the earth, the key, or the bottomless pit. The first analogy is that ...

the smoke out of the pit IS AS the smoke of a great furnace.

Then, it goes back to the fact that the smoke from the pit darkens the sun and the air. 

-o-

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 

[Here, the second analogy is that ...

the power of the locusts WAS AS the power of the scorpions of the earth.

Notice that John did NOT say that ANYTHING was like the locusts or that the locusts were like ANYTHING!]

-o-

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 

[Now, John said that the locusts were commanded ...

1. Not to hurt the grass of the earth (odd for modern locusts)
2. Not to hurt any green thing (again, odd for modern locusts)
3. Not to hurt any tree (again, odd for modern locusts)
4. To hurt those men who have not the seal of God in their foreheads
5. Not to kill them
6. To torment them five months

Then we get the third analogy:

The torment of the locusts WAS LIKE the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a person.

-o-

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

[No analogy is found in this verse.]

-o-

[Now comes the description of these locusts:]

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle;
and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold,
and their faces were as the faces of men. 
8 And they had hair as the hair of women,
and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron;
and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 

[So, we have a SERIES of analogies, the fourth analogy to the eleventh analogy:

4. The shapes of the locusts WERE LIKE unto (the shapes of) horses prepared unto battle,
5. The things on their heads WERE AS crowns (stefanoi = victor's wreaths) LIKE gold.
6. The faces of the locusts WERE AS the faces of men.
7. The hair of the locusts (not necessarily on top of their heads) WERE AS the hair of women.
8. The teeth of the locusts WERE AS the teeth of lions.
9. The breastplates (thoraxes) of the locusts WERE AS they were breastplates of iron.
10. The sound of their wings WAS AS the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
11. The tails of the locusts WERE LIKE the tails of scorpions, and LIKE the scorpions, they had stings in their tails.]

-o- 

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

[And, there are no analogies in these last two verses.]

Therefore, as much as it goes against the grain, there's no reason to believe that these locusts were analogous of ANYTHING! They will be LITERAL LOCUSTS!

On 3/20/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

The Bible was structured so every age could understand the meaning using symbolism. It was and will still be in future generations to compare it with—people, animals, and the natural fit that bill. The prophets and apostles themselves did not understand much of what they witnessed and were inspired to write. They had no concept of technology and the modern age; they were not auto writers but were inspired. 

No analogy here. These will be literal creatures that come upon the earth after it is cracked open by a meteorite. There's no technology or machinery here. These are living beings.

And, prophets of God were TOLD what to write and what NOT to write. Yochanan ("John") was no different here. He even told us that he was not permitted to write down what the seven thunders uttered, for instance. And, in other instances, he was instructed what to write down that he might have otherwise neglected to write.

On 3/20/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Destroyer vs. destruction, both nouns, are apples to apples; what does a destroyer do, brings destruction. Either adaptation would be accurate in English, I would surmise. 

No. A "Destroyer" may bring "destruction," but not every "destruction" is caused by a "destroyer." In this particular case, the "destruction" is NOT of those whom the locusts attack (they weren't allowed to die, after all), but of THEMSELVES!

On 3/20/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Before the final eternal prison of the Lake of Fire, Death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire. My thoughts on Hades (Hell), Gehenna, Tartarus, and the Abyss, are like a jail with different security levels and torments. According to their works and evil deeds, both fallen spiritual creatures and humans will be judged and sentenced. There appears to be a separation of jails where the spiritual and flesh are separated and confined now. 

First, the "Abyss" (Greek: "abussos" = "no-depth") is NEVER said to be "hell." That comes from a Mediaeval assumption! Don't confuse the words translated "hell" (ge-enna, tartaro-oo, and hadees) with the Lake of Fire. The two things are ENTIRELY different!

Hell (coming from Norse mythology) is unfortunately assigned to these three words:

Ge-enna = Gei-Hinnowm = "The Valley of Hinnowm" outside Jerusalem where the King will establish His Judgment Seat.

Hadees = Sh'owl = the Grave (the "Unseen," the "Asked About"), from which all will be resurrected, although not all at the same time.

Tartaro-oo (a VERB) = "to incarcerate." People typically add too much to the definition of this word. The word was used ONCE in 2 Peter 2:4. I don't know why people INSIST on adding Greek mythology to the term!

Here's what Greek mythology (found at GreekLegendsAndMyths.com) adds to the term:

Quote

Tartarus, the Hell-pit, was said to be found as far beneath the surface of the earth, as the sky was above the surface. The Greek poet Hesiod would even state that it would take a bronze anvil nine days to fall from the earth until it reached Tartarus. 

This Hell-pit would be made use of as a prison by a series of supreme deities starting with Ouranos (Sky). Fearful for his position, Ouranos would decide to imprison those he perceived within Tartarus. This meant that his own offspring first Cyclopes; Brontes, Steropes and Arges, and then the Hecatonchires; Briares, Cottus and Gyges, were all imprisoned. Ouranos allowed a third set of children, to roam free, which proved to be a mistake, for it was they who eventually did overthrow Ouranos. 

The Titan Cronus would take up the position of supreme deity, and he too was fearful of the Hecatonchires and the Cyclopes, so they remained imprisoned; Cronus even added a new prison guard, the dragon Kampfe. 

Cronus himself was overthrown by his own son Zeus, who released the Cyclopes and Hecatonchires to aid him in the Titanomachy. Zeus and his siblings would win the war, and Zeus would then imprison the Titans he had overthrown within Tartarus.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I interpret those as mentioned above to all be underfoot. I visualize the bottomless pit as far down as possible, where there is no more down, only up in all directions. 
As I previously mentioned, John goes into extraordinary detail, giving us a meticulous description of the locust’s appearance. One can assume they are seen with the naked eye, or is their description symbolic of something else? 

But, see, you are basing this upon the thought that "the bottomless pit [is] as far down as possible, where there is no more down, only up in all directions!" That's not what the word "abussos" means! It doesn't mean "no bottom"; it means "no depth!" Simply put, the depth of the pit was never measured! It had never been sounded!

The pressure at the center of the earth is 365 GPa! The "G" stands for "Giga" which means "BILLION!" Therefore, this is 365 BILLION Pascals of pressure! That's about 3.6 MILLION ATMOSPHERES! It can't even be as far down as the bottom of the mantle before the outer core starts! There, the pressure is STILL about 130 GPa! That's still about 1.28 MILLION ATMOSPHERES of pressure!

On 3/20/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Because they ascend out of the bottomless pit, it leaves only one conclusion. These locusts cannot be physical humanity, fighter jets, drones, or attack helicopters, but spiritual creatures, IMO. 

These people wishing to die from their stings and torment are not allowed to commit suicide. Who and how are these people prevented from carrying out their wish to end their pain and suffering? The Lord is in control and directing how, when and what occurs, divine intervention. 

There are a few interesting theories on why these people cannot end their own lives by free will. 

Again, it's simpler than that. The poison of an Egyptian scorpion is a NERVE TOXIN! It stuns the nerves, immobilizing the victim! They couldn't even ASK to be killed for mercy's sake! And, they CERTAINLY couldn't carry out their own suicide! They will just lie there and suffer! They will probably be immobilized for the duration of the time, 5 months, until the species dies off.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Retrobyter
I lost a part of the original post