Revelation 9 - Locusts reference

[Retrobyter]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

...
God gave Adam more than O2.

Shalom, abcdef.

Yes, God made Adam a body that could think, feel, taste, smell, see, pump blood throughout, had a complete immune system, and bones and muscles and sinews and lymphatic vessels, etc. God FORMED HIM (not "his body") of dust from the ground. The puff of living things was just the final piece of the puzzle, and the man began breathing and living on his own.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

With a heart, mind, and strength, not just exclusively the 4 created elements.

God is immaterial to us. That is, He is not made of the 4 elements, or light, as the rest of creation, He is spirit.

Nor are we made of the "four elements" (which I've already mentioned are NOT "elements"). We are "made of dust from the ground" as our ancestor was, but we were formed as such in our mother's womb, passing the flesh on to us through our parents' DNA.

I'm okay with saying that God is immaterial to us, since He created matter. However, one needs to know what "spirit" is before one says that "God is spirit."

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

The animals are "living air-breathing creatures", Are you an animal the same as them?

We were created like they were. The ONLY difference is that we were "created in the image of God."

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Yes we are, in a physical/material way,  but Jesus didn't die for their sins, He died for our sins, to remove a spiritual blemish of guilt.

So we are the children of God, Pssm 82:6, and the animals are not.

It was the puff and the substance behind the "puff" that was the difference, we are the children of God, not the animals.

God created life, but He did not give animals souls, only spirits.

No, sir. You're wrong. Both human beings and animals are both "souls" or "air-breathing creatures," and both have a "spirit," a "breath." Animals are "air-breathing creatures" or "souls" just as human beings are! 

I hope you remember that the Hebrew word translated "soul" is "nefesh," and that a "living soul" is "nefesh chayyaah," right? Well, check out this verse:

Genesis 1:24 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so.

The Hebrew of this verse is this:

Breeshiyt 1:24 (JPS)

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים תֹּוצֵ֨א הָאָ֜רֶץ נֶ֤פֶשׁ חַיָּה֙ לְמִינָ֔הּ בְּהֵמָ֥ה וָרֶ֛מֶשׂ וְחַֽיְתֹו־אֶ֖רֶץ לְמִינָ֑הּ וַֽיְהִי־כֵֽן׃

Transliterated this becomes:

24 Vayyo'mer Elohiym towtsee' haa'aarets nefesh chayyaah lmiynaah bheemaah vaaremes vchaytov-'erets lmiynaah vayhiy-keen:

A word-for-word translation into English would be ...

24 And-said God,

"Let-bring-forth the-earth air-breathing-creatures living to-its-kind livestock and-creeping-thing and-beast-of-[the]-earth to-its-kind,"

and-it-was-so:

Thus, the animals of the earth are ALSO "living, air-breathing creatures" or "living souls."

What differentiates us from the animals is this:

Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)

26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Will you say that there is no God?

God is a living Spirit?

What do you mean that there is no such thing?

Your eternal life depends on it.

Ridiculous! OF COURSE, there's a God! And, yes, God is spirit, and God is alive. There's no such thing as a "spiritual realm" as you paint it! And, I would question YOUR justification by God if you don't know that such justification does NOT depend on one's understanding of the "spiritual realm!" It only matters when one throws himself at the foot of God's throne, and says, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!"

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

In Adam's case it was, living breath, as Adam became a living soul with a heart and mind.

Adam sinned. Gen 3:10 " ... , I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."

It was not a physical change, but a change in the heart and the mind of the soul/spirit. Part of the unseen, immaterial, the living spiritual substance.

No. "Breath" is not what was living! It was the CREATED BEING. the MAN, who was living!

When Adam and Chavah sinned, they were hiding themselves because they suddenly KNEW that they were naked! The fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had no mystical, magical power! It was so named because it was a name that was prophetic! When they ate of the tree, they sinned and their eyes were opened to the fact that, immediately at that time, God was Good and THEY were Evil! Before that point, there was no difference between God who was Good and themselves who were also Good. God had pronounced them, along with all Creation, "very good!"

Now, at that time, they KNEW that they had sinned in disobeying God's command and that they were evil in doing so!

That's the SIN part.

The JUDGMENT upon sin was the DECAY and DEATH, and that ABSOLUTELY was physical!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

True.

 

" ... In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

Adam did die the day that He ate the fruit. He became separated from the presence of God.

DID he indeed?! Didn't God search him out, saying "Adam, where art thou?"

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Yes Adam died. the body returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God, Ecc 12:7. 

The breath returned to God because NOTHING of God's creation was lost. The air just went back into the wind that gave it!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

The winds sometimes are symbols of spirits Jn 3:8

-

The meaning of this verse is NOT to show that winds are symbols of spirits!

John 3:8 (KJV)

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What Yeshua` was saying is,

The wind blows where it will, and you hear its sound, but you can't tell where it came from or where it's going! IN THE SAME WAY is everyone having been born out of the Spirit, the Wind! In other words, you can't tell where they came from, and you can't tell where they are going! Their relationship with God is personal and invisible.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

In the case of the 7 Spirits of God, it says that they are the seven lamps Rev 4:5.

Rev 1:20, the lampstands are the seven churches.

First, let's get this straight: In Revelation 1:20, the seven golden lampstands use the Greek words "tas hepta luchnias tas chrusas," which mean "the seven lampstands the golden."

In Revelation 4:5, they are a completely different set of words, "hepta lampades puras kaiomenai," which mean "seven torches of-fire burning!"

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Are the churches actual lampstands, that would be candle holders or People?

Why are the 7 churches symbolized as lampstands? The gospel? Light of the world?

...

"Eccleesiai kuriakon" are "gatherings of-[the]-Lord."

(It's from "kuriakon" that we get our word "church." The origin of the word "church" is said to be,

"Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, related to Dutch kerk and German Kirche, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (dōma) ‘Lord's (house)’, from kurios ‘master or lord’. Compare with kirk.")

Thus, literally, they are groups of people who come together for a meeting. They ARE symbolic of lampstands, because they hold the "light" by which others might "see" the truth. They are indeed those who hold "the Light of the world," Yeshua`!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

There were many more than 5 objects, 24 elders, etc..

The point is that only God could be in the center of the throne, and everything, and Jesus was there as God.

NO! YHWH Elohiym is God! Yeshua` haMaashiyach Elohiym, "Jesus, the Messiah of God," is the SON of God! YHWH Elohiym is upon the throne; Yeshua` was standing in the middle of the throne and the four beasts, not just in the middle of the throne! Read the WHOLE sentence before coming to conclusions!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

I know that the seven Spirits were in the possession of the Lamb.

The Scriptures don't say that. What it says is that they were burning before the Thone of God.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

And that the horns and eyes represent something.

What do the eyes represent?

What do the horns represent?

You are only focused on the symbols as the subject,

Rather that what the symbols represent, as the subject.

Try to understand what the symbols represent.

 

Yes, but Jesus was not a literal young sheep, Baaaaah.

Yeshua` was the LITERAL "Lamb of God," "haKeves Elohiym," the ULTIMATE Sacrifice slain for our sins! Oh, and He didn't so much as SAY, "Baaaah!"

Isaiah 53:7 (KJV)

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

You may say, "I see the ocean", But you can only see the surface, we know that there is more to the ocean than just the surface. You must dive in to understand more. The deep is just as real as the surface.

 

Stars are not necessarily named specifically in every vision in the Revelation. But they are identified in parallel passages, Rev 12:1.

 

Evil doctrine or good doctrine, the leaven is symbolic of a doctrine.

NOT ALWAYS! Sometimes, Yeshua` used the leaven to represent something else. In Matthew 13:33, He SPECIFICALLY equated the Kingdom from the Sky to leaven!

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Three measures is HUGE! It's 1.125 (1-1/8) bushels of wheat flour or the dough made from that much! Why three measures? The Greek measure "saton" is the equivalent of the Hebrew measure, "s'aah." Both are about a peck and a third. There are three "s'iym" (the plural of "s'aah") in an "ephah." I believe that Yeshua`s original parable was in Hebrew (or at least, Aramaic), and His word was "ephah" in the parable. I believe that was translated into the Greek as three "sata" in the text.

Now imagine: 1.125 bushels of wheat-flour dough with a cake of yeast kneeded into it. How long would it take to permeate the whole amount of dough? THAT is what Yeshua` was talking about. His Kingdom during the 1,000 years will take time to influence the whole world, but it will do so before the 1,000 years have ended.

 

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

You assume that the "heaven" that the star falls from is the atmosphere, but there is a heaven where God is.

Actually, there's not. The term "heaven" or even its plural "heavens" is from the Greek word "ouranos," the plural is "ouranoi." In the TANAKH (the Old Testament), the Hebrew word is "shaamayim," a DUAL word, neither singular nor the plural. The dual number is used for things that come in pairs, like "eyes," "hands," and "feet." The dual number used for "shaamayim" is because there's a "nighttime sky" and a "daytime sky." The Greek word "ouranos" is used for the atmosphere - the "SKY." Even the plural of this word, "ouranoi," is used to translate the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and is often translated as "skies" in the B'rit Chadashah (the New Testament).

The best example of this is found in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

In the four times the word "ouranos" is used in this short passage, three times it was translated as "the sky," all by the Master Yeshua`; only once was it translated as "heaven," and that by the Pharisees and Sadducees.

This is WEATHER WISDOM!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

You say that the "key" is coordinates, but a key is not coordinates. Rev 20:3 shows the the key fits a lock. But you wish to make the key, not a real key that fits a lock, into a location.

Changing the meaning of the key into symbolism for coordinates.

So the key would be symbolic of coordinates.

Except that Prov 30:27, says that locusts have no king. It doesn't say that about ants or bees, only locusts.

Since these locusts have a king, they cannot be real locusts.

Nonsense. We're not talking about the locusts that currently exist; we're talking about a species of locusts that were extant before the Flood! They are much bigger, and they have stings in their tails like scorpions do with scorpion-similar poison! We don't yet know what their social structure will be, except for what the Word of God tells us! We know that they are a doomed species that only lasts for 5 months.

As far as the key goes, wouldn't a pin be the literal "key" to open a helium balloon? I've said "key coordinates," but it may indeed be talking about a spearhead-like projection upon the meteorite, a literal key to open the "pit with an unsounded bottom." It may even be made of diamond or corundum to make it easier to puncture the surface above the pit.

Again, I have to stop at this point. I have a doctor's appointment early tomorrow morning.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

...

[To my statement, "(the king is) the only male of the species, all others are female", you said, "An assumption, which is not in scriptures."

Shalom, abcdef.

Yes, that is an assumption; however, it lines up with the Greek of Revelation 9:1-12.

Revelation 9:1-12 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their (Greek: autoon) wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their (Greek: autoon = "of-them," genitive, feminine, 3rd-person, plural) tails: and their (Greek: autoon = "of-them," genitive, feminine, 3rd-person, plural) power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king (Greek: basilea = "a king," accusative, masculine, singular), over them (Greek: epi autoon = "over them," genitive, feminine, 3rd-person, plural), which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is "Abaddon," but in the Greek tongue hath his name "Apollyon."

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

In Greek, the masculine is used for groups of feminine and masculine. Only in the case where all members are feminine will the plural also be feminine. The only masculine found in verses 10 and 11 is "a king."

So,

a group of all masculine = masculine plural,
a group of one feminine and all the rest masculine = masculine plural,
a group of one masculine and all the rest feminine = masculine plural, but...
a group of all feminine = feminine plural.
 

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

It doesn't say that they die off, 5 months is the time of torture.

No, it doesn't, but ... where will they go after the 5 months? And, the king's name is "Destruction" (NOT "Destroyer!") If something is doing such damage to individuals, wouldn't it be likely that other people unaffected by the poison would seek to exterminate the locusts (which apparently will be hard to do)? We also read that they had "thoraxes (breastplates) AS breastplates of IRON!" This suggests to me that many will try to pierce their thoraxes from the front or sides and will be unsuccessful. Their tails, abdomens, will be close to where their stingers are, but it may be the only "soft spot" they have!

So, since one would have to attack such creatures from the rear, it may be DOUBLY hard to kill them, since they have insect compound eyes that can see all around them!

If one will remember the movie "Reign of Fire," the dragons in the movie had the particular weakness that they only had ONE male of the species. Kill the male, and there would be no more reproduction of the creatures. The females would die off (or be killed) and the species would be eradicated.

This swarm will be similarly affected. Kill the king; kill the species.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Ok, so how long can a person live without food or water?

If they are paralyzed, they will die in a week without water.

UNLESS, they are found by comrades or friends who attempt to undo the damage! The friends and associates, who value their friends' lives, will most likely put them on life-support while their systems are attempting to drain the poison from their bodies. It may not be possible to counteract the affects of the unknown poison that acts LIKE a scorpion's venom - a nerve toxin, and the physicians just allow it to run its course, being purged from their systems by their own liver and kidneys.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

It does not say that they are unable to move or speak, that is something that you have decided.

No, you're right, it doesn't; BUT, what it DOES say is ...

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was AS the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

So, "they (the locusts) should ... hurt ... only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." But, "to them it was given that they should NOT kill them."

"They (the victims) should be tormented five months." "In those days, shall men (the victims) seek death, and shall not find it." That means they will LOOK FOR WAYS to die, but they won't be given that satisfaction! "They shall desire or WANT to die," but "death shall elude them!"

And, again, the key to this is that "their torment (the pain inflicted) was AS the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man." And, a scorpion's venom is a nerve toxin!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

So if they are bit by the locusts, then I could cut their heads off, or shoot them and they would not die? Could not die?

The bites might be painful, but it is the STINGS that are poisonous! You're not going to be able to cut off the head of a locust. The thorax would prevent that. You're not going to be able to shoot them so easily; these are like THORAXES OF IRON! The bullets might wedge into the chitin, but they're not getting through to the vital organs. Most likely, the bullets will bounce off! While not impossible to kill, I think these locusts will be EXTREMELY hard to kill!

If you're talking about the people who seek death instead of the locusts, would you "cut off a FRIEND'S head?!" Would you "shoot your FRIEND?" Why would they WANT to kill these victims?! They are their SOLDIERS-AT-ARMS! They are their FRIENDS! They would try to PROTECT their friends, to PRESERVE THE LIVES of their friends! They would want to keep their army strong!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Dive in the ocean.

No thanks.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

No, the gospel, Israel, the Revelation of Jesus, the kingdom, and the battle between good and evil is exactly what what is being discussed.

The Revelation is about Israel, Jerusalem, and the gospel kingdom using the spiritual weapons of war. Eph 6:12, The sword of the Word of God, the breastplate of righteousness, truth, peace, and the shield of faith.

These are the weapons that Christians fight the locust/false prophets with.

Nope. Sorry, that's a VERY BAD interpretation of these locusts!

Besides, you've misrepresented the Kingdom of God, ruled over by God's Messiah, Yeshua`. It's not a "battle between good and evil"; it's a battle between God's Kingdom and the surrounding kingdoms that must be subdued.

One really must think more literally! Look at the words Paul used in 1 Corinthians 15: Speaking of the resurrections, he said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits; [This happened in the 1st Century A.D.)
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [Still in our future, near the beginning of the Millennium]
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [This will happen at the end of the Millennium.]

 25 For he (the Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For "he hath put ALL things under his feet." 

{But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Christ).} 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all.

The Good News is ABOUT THE KINGDOM! Look how early it was introduced in Mark 1!

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

He didn't have to tell the children of Israel what the "gospel" was; He only said, "repent ye (turn yourselves around), and BELIEVE the gospel!" They already KNEW the gospel of the Kingdom, and it did NOT yet include the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah or Christ":

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, "Thy God reigneth!"

This is the Good News is ABOUT THE KINGDOM to which Christ alluded:

Matthew 24:9-14 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsis = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (delivered; rescued). 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Edited April 6, 2022 by Retrobyter
to finish an unfinished thought

[abcdef]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

Yes, God made Adam a body that could think, feel, taste, smell, see, pump blood throughout, had a complete immune system, and bones and muscles and sinews and lymphatic vessels, etc. God FORMED HIM (not "his body") of dust from the ground. The puff of living things was just the final piece of the puzzle, and the man began breathing and living on his own.

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal."

Do you agree or disagree with this statement? And briefly, why?

--

[abcdef]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

Yes, God made Adam a body that could think, feel, taste, smell, see, pump blood throughout, had a complete immune system, and bones and muscles and sinews and lymphatic vessels, etc. God FORMED HIM (not "his body") of dust from the ground. The puff of living things was just the final piece of the puzzle, and the man began breathing and living on his own.

That's OK, I know that you agree completely and totally with the statement.

[abcdef]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

Yes, God made Adam a body that could think, feel, taste, smell, see, pump blood throughout, had a complete immune system, and bones and muscles and sinews and lymphatic vessels, etc. God FORMED HIM (not "his body") of dust from the ground. The puff of living things was just the final piece of the puzzle, and the man began breathing and living on his own.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Nor are we made of the "four elements" (which I've already mentioned are NOT "elements"). We are "made of dust from the ground" as our ancestor was, but we were formed as such in our mother's womb, passing the flesh on to us through our parents' DNA.

In the time of Moses and the apostles there were only four elements, air, water, earth and fire.

Man's element is earth, but the other elements are present also within man.

The modern breakdown of the elements is different. 

The context of when the scriptures were written and their meaning at the time that they were written gives understanding.

For Moses and the apostles there were only 4 elements. To change the number of elements considered in the scriptures is to change the meaning of the author's intended meaning. 

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

I'm okay with saying that God is immaterial to us, since He created matter. However, one needs to know what "spirit" is before one says that "God is spirit."

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal."

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

We were created like they were. The ONLY difference is that we were "created in the image of God."

We were created in the Image of God, yes. Animals, no.

We were not created as they were. God "breathed" His spirit into us, making our spirits complete souls and animals only spirits.

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal."

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

No, sir. You're wrong. Both human beings and animals are both "souls" or "air-breathing creatures," and both have a "spirit," a "breath." Animals are "air-breathing creatures" or "souls" just as human beings are! 

The difference between a spirit and a soul is that a soul is human and an animal is not.

Adam became a living soul, human.

Animals are not human, so they cannot be souls as Adam was.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

I hope you remember that the Hebrew word translated "soul" is "nefesh," and that a "living soul" is "nefesh chayyaah," right? Well, check out this verse:

Genesis 1:24 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so.

The Hebrew of this verse is this:

Breeshiyt 1:24 (JPS)

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים תֹּוצֵ֨א הָאָ֜רֶץ נֶ֤פֶשׁ חַיָּה֙ לְמִינָ֔הּ בְּהֵמָ֥ה וָרֶ֛מֶשׂ וְחַֽיְתֹו־אֶ֖רֶץ לְמִינָ֑הּ וַֽיְהִי־כֵֽן׃

Transliterated this becomes:

24 Vayyo'mer Elohiym towtsee' haa'aarets nefesh chayyaah lmiynaah bheemaah vaaremes vchaytov-'erets lmiynaah vayhiy-keen:

A word-for-word translation into English would be ...

24 And-said God,

"Let-bring-forth the-earth air-breathing-creatures living to-its-kind livestock and-creeping-thing and-beast-of-[the]-earth to-its-kind,"

and-it-was-so:

Thus, the animals of the earth are ALSO "living, air-breathing creatures" or "living souls."

What differentiates us from the animals is this:

Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)

26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The human soul is able to understand good and evil, guilt, have an awareness above the animals, and can be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

Animals are not.

That is the difference between the animal spirits and the human soul.

Animals cannot be human souls because they are not humans.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Ridiculous! OF COURSE, there's a God! And, yes, God is spirit, and God is alive.

"One needs to know what spirit is before one says that God is spirit."

God is not air/wind.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

There's no such thing as a "spiritual realm" as you paint it!

The spiritual realm is where God and the spirits are.

A real place.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

And, I would question YOUR justification by God if you don't know that such justification does NOT depend on one's understanding of the "spiritual realm!" It only matters when one throws himself at the foot of God's throne, and says, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!"

Yes

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

No. "Breath" is not what was living! It was the CREATED BEING. the MAN, who was living!

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal."

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

When Adam and Chavah sinned, they were hiding themselves because they suddenly KNEW that they were naked!

The change in Adam was not physical, but was spiritual.

He was guilty from sin.

A spiritual change.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

The fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had no mystical, magical power!

Except temptation to sin and guilt.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

It was so named because it was a name that was prophetic! When they ate of the tree, they sinned and their eyes were opened to the fact that, immediately at that time, God was Good and THEY were Evil! Before that point, there was no difference between God who was Good and themselves who were also Good. God had pronounced them, along with all Creation, "very good!"

When they ate from the tree they spiritually died. They became guilty and became separated from God. They were not physically separated until later that day when they were kicked out of the garden. 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Now, at that time, they KNEW that they had sinned in disobeying God's command and that they were evil in doing so!

Spiritual death, not physical change.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

That's the SIN part.

The JUDGMENT upon sin was the DECAY and DEATH, and that ABSOLUTELY was physical!

DID he indeed?! Didn't God search him out, saying "Adam, where art thou?"

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

The breath returned to God because NOTHING of God's creation was lost. The air just went back into the wind that gave it!

The physical air is not the spirit.

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal"

The spirit goes back to God who gave it, it is not material air.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

The meaning of this verse is NOT to show that winds are symbols of spirits!

John 3:8 (KJV)

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus made a comparison of the wind to the spirit. The wind is as the spirit and the spirit is as the wind. So the wind is a symbol of the spirit and the spirit can be symbolized as the wind.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

What Yeshua` was saying is,

The wind blows where it will, and you hear its sound, but you can't tell where it came from or where it's going! IN THE SAME WAY is everyone having been born out of the Spirit, the Wind! In other words, you can't tell where they came from, and you can't tell where they are going! Their relationship with God is personal and invisible.

yes

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

 

First, let's get this straight: In Revelation 1:20, the seven golden lampstands use the Greek words "tas hepta luchnias tas chrusas," which mean "the seven lampstands the golden."

In Revelation 4:5, they are a completely different set of words, "hepta lampades puras kaiomenai," which mean "seven torches of-fire burning!"

"Eccleesiai kuriakon" are "gatherings of-[the]-Lord."

(It's from "kuriakon" that we get our word "church." The origin of the word "church" is said to be,

"Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, related to Dutch kerk and German Kirche, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (dōma) ‘Lord's (house)’, from kurios ‘master or lord’. Compare with kirk.")

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Thus, literally, they are groups of people who come together for a meeting. They ARE symbolic of lampstands, because they hold the "light" by which others might "see" the truth. They are indeed those who hold "the Light of the world," Yeshua`!

Yes, the lampstands are symbolic of literal people. The people are symbolized as lampstands.

The people are also symbolized as the 7 spirits.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

NO! YHWH Elohiym is God! Yeshua` haMaashiyach Elohiym, "Jesus, the Messiah of God," is the SON of God! YHWH Elohiym is upon the throne; Yeshua` was standing in the middle of the throne and the four beasts, not just in the middle of the throne! Read the WHOLE sentence before coming to conclusions!

The throne is in the middle of everything, not just the beasts.

Again, the meaning is that Jesus is God.

The symbols are not the subject.

What the symbols represent, is the subject.

Can't see the forest, because of the trees.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

The Scriptures don't say that. What it says is that they were burning before the Thone of God.

Rev 5:6

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` was the LITERAL "Lamb of God," "haKeves Elohiym," the ULTIMATE Sacrifice slain for our sins! Oh, and He didn't so much as SAY, "Baaaah!"

Yes, Jesus was the literal Lamb of God.

But He was not a sheep.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Isaiah 53:7 (KJV)

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

NOT ALWAYS! Sometimes, Yeshua` used the leaven to represent something else. In Matthew 13:33, He SPECIFICALLY equated the Kingdom from the Sky to leaven!

The kingdom of God is also a doctrine.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Three measures is HUGE! It's 1.125 (1-1/8) bushels of wheat flour or the dough made from that much! Why three measures? The Greek measure "saton" is the equivalent of the Hebrew measure, "s'aah." Both are about a peck and a third. There are three "s'iym" (the plural of "s'aah") in an "ephah." I believe that Yeshua`s original parable was in Hebrew (or at least, Aramaic), and His word was "ephah" in the parable. I believe that was translated into the Greek as three "sata" in the text.

Now imagine: 1.125 bushels of wheat-flour dough with a cake of yeast kneeded into it. How long would it take to permeate the whole amount of dough? THAT is what Yeshua` was talking about. His Kingdom during the 1,000 years will take time to influence the whole world, but it will do so before the 1,000 years have ended.

Doctrine.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Actually, there's not. The term "heaven" or even its plural "heavens" is from the Greek word "ouranos," the plural is "ouranoi." In the TANAKH (the Old Testament), the Hebrew word is "shaamayim," a DUAL word, neither singular nor the plural. The dual number is used for things that come in pairs, like "eyes," "hands," and "feet." The dual number used for "shaamayim" is because there's a "nighttime sky" and a "daytime sky." The Greek word "ouranos" is used for the atmosphere - the "SKY." Even the plural of this word, "ouranoi," is used to translate the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and is often translated as "skies" in the B'rit Chadashah (the New Testament).

The best example of this is found in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

In the four times the word "ouranos" is used in this short passage, three times it was translated as "the sky," all by the Master Yeshua`; only once was it translated as "heaven," and that by the Pharisees and Sadducees.

This is WEATHER WISDOM!

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Nonsense. We're not talking about the locusts that currently exist; we're talking about a species of locusts that were extant before the Flood!

An assumption, not found in scripture.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

They are much bigger,

An assumption not found in scripture.

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

and they have stings in their tails like scorpions do with scorpion-similar poison!

The sting of sin is death.

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

We don't yet know what their social structure will be, except for what the Word of God tells us!

Yes

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

We know that they are a doomed species that only lasts for 5 months.

An assumption, not found in scripture.

5 months is the time of torment.

It doesn't say what happens to the locusts after the 5 months.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

As far as the key goes, wouldn't a pin be the literal "key" to open a helium balloon?

So now you are saying that the "key" is not a key at all, but symbolic of a pointy thing.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

I've said "key coordinates," but it may indeed be talking about a spearhead-like projection upon the meteorite, a literal key to open the "pit with an unsounded bottom." It may even be made of diamond or corundum to make it easier to puncture the surface above the pit.

Rev 20:1-2, it shows that the key is used to bind Satan. So it cannot be a pointy meteorite or coordinates.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 11:42 PM, Retrobyter said:

Again, I have to stop at this point. I have a doctor's appointment early tomorrow morning.

May God give you good health.

[abcdef]

On 4/6/2022 at 7:27 AM, Retrobyter said:

 11 And they had a king (Greek: basilea = "a king," accusative, masculine, singular), over them (Greek: epi autoon = "over them," genitive, feminine, 3rd-person, plural), which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is "Abaddon," but in the Greek tongue hath his name "Apollyon."

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

In Greek, the masculine is used for groups of feminine and masculine. Only in the case where all members are feminine will the plural also be feminine. The only masculine found in verses 10 and 11 is "a king."

So,

a group of all masculine = masculine plural,
a group of one feminine and all the rest masculine = masculine plural,
a group of one masculine and all the rest feminine = masculine plural, but...
a group of all feminine = feminine plural.
 

No, it doesn't, but ... where will they go after the 5 months? And, the king's name is "Destruction" (NOT "Destroyer!") If something is doing such damage to individuals, wouldn't it be likely that other people unaffected by the poison would seek to exterminate the locusts (which apparently will be hard to do)? We also read that they had "thoraxes (breastplates) AS breastplates of IRON!" This suggests to me that many will try to pierce their thoraxes from the front or sides and will be unsuccessful. Their tails, abdomens, will be close to where their stingers are, but it may be the only "soft spot" they have!

So, since one would have to attack such creatures from the rear, it may be DOUBLY hard to kill them, since they have insect compound eyes that can see all around them!

If one will remember the movie "Reign of Fire," the dragons in the movie had the particular weakness that they only had ONE male of the species. Kill the male, and there would be no more reproduction of the creatures. The females would die off (or be killed) and the species would be eradicated.

This swarm will be similarly affected. Kill the king; kill the species.

 

-

Who is the angel of the abyss and king over the locusts?

 

-

[Retrobyter]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:29 AM, abcdef said:

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal."

Do you agree or disagree with this statement? And briefly, why?

--

Shalom, abcdef.

You asked the questions above, but then you seemed to answer them in the next post:

Quote

That's OK, I know that you agree completely and totally with the statement.

Actually, I do NOT agree with that statement. First, there's no such thing as "eternal breaths," for that's what "spirits" mean. Second, there's nothing special about the "breath of life"; it means the "breath" that is common to all "living things." We give the breath of life to individuals with CPR; veternarians can give the breath of life to animals, as well. The first breath into Adam's nostrils was not more than the physical act of filling Adam's lungs with air, so that the process of exhaling and inhaling could begin.

While God is eternal, there's nothing in us that is eternal, UNTIL God makes us eternal in the Resurrection. When we have been made bodies that are incorruptible and immortal, THEN we become eternal!

[Retrobyter]

On 4/9/2022 at 11:59 PM, abcdef said:

-

Who is the angel of the abyss and king over the locusts?

-

Shalom, abcdef.

Well, according to the text, the messenger from the pit with the unsounded depth has the name "Abaddown," "Apolluoon," in Greek. But, I think you're thinking something more than what the text says? One shouldn't read into the text what isn't there.

[abcdef]

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

You asked the questions above, but then you seemed to answer them in the next post:

Go to the thread, "First resurrection, is it of time place or rank".

Then go page 11, to the last post on that page. At the bottom of the 2nd paragraph you will find this statement,

"We have eternal spirits as the breath of life given to us by God is eternal from the eternal".

Those are your words, it is your statement, I was just quoting you.

I think it is a great statement. A statement of truth that captures the spirit of the creation of Adam and all of us.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

Actually, I do NOT agree with that statement.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

First, there's no such thing as "eternal breaths," for that's what "spirits" mean.

Does God have eternal breaths? Do we have eternal breaths, after the resurrection? So there is such a thing, but "eternal breaths" is symbolism.

In the world of symbolism, there are eternal breaths, but in reality no. God does not need material created air to live. He was alive long before air was created. After the resurrection we won't need air either.

The soul is more than just a body. It has a mind, heart, and strength, Mk 12:30. They separate at death and the body is left behind. We are still living, with mind, heart, and strength, but we don't need material air to breath any longer. It is symbolism, so that people through all ages could understand the word of God.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

Second, there's nothing special about the "breath of life"; it means the "breath" that is common to all "living things." We give the breath of life to individuals with CPR; veternarians can give the breath of life to animals, as well.

In one understanding of the term "breath of life", yes.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

The first breath into Adam's nostrils was not more than the physical act of filling Adam's lungs with air, so that the process of exhaling and inhaling could begin.

Adam was a "son of God", Lk 3:38. How was Adam God's son?

Adam was God's son because God's "breath of life" is more than just material air.

In order to be God's "son", part of God had to be put into the creation process. That is, unless part of God Himself was put into Adam, then Adam would not be God's son.

The "breath of life" that God breathed into Adam is showing part of God entering into the body that God had prepared. The parts of the soul, that Adam did not have in his material body, his mind, his heart, and his strength, all came from God in His breath to make a complete human soul.

Human souls are in God's image, but it is the spiritual image, not the physical image. God should not be thought of as in the image of man, man is in the image of God's spirit. 

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

While God is eternal, there's nothing in us that is eternal,

Our minds, hearts, and strengths are eternal. When we die physically those things separate from the body. They do not cease to exist, they are just in another form.

Like butterflies.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

UNTIL God makes us eternal in the Resurrection.

We are eternal now. It is a matter of being with God or being cast away from the presence of God, for eternity, basically.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 PM, Retrobyter said:

When we have been made bodies that are incorruptible and immortal, THEN we become eternal!

Eternally breathing? Yes, in symbolic terms.

No, in material air terms. This world is passing away, 1 John 2:15-17, Gen 8:22.

--

[abcdef]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

Well, according to the text, the messenger from the pit with the unsounded depth has the name "Abaddown," "Apolluoon," in Greek. But, I think you're thinking something more than what the text says? One shouldn't read into the text what isn't there.

I only asked who the angel of the abyss and the king of the locusts is.

You have already stated that he is a male locust.

 What is an angel? Why is this bug an angel?