Revelation 9 - Locusts reference

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, abcdef said:

1 Cor 2:13- 14.

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Shalom, abcdef.

People use these verses too generically, saying that they apply to the whole Scriptures, when in fact, that is NOT to what Paul was referring! One should really read these two verses in context and see what Paul was saying within that context:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we (d0) speak wisdom among them that are perfect (mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (secret), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written,

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (Isaiah 64:4)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For

"who hath known the mind of the LORD, that he may instruct him?" (Isaiah 40:13)

But we have the mind of Christ (the mind of the Messiah).

Now, here's where a good understanding of what "spirit" means will help: The word "spirit" itself comes from the Latin word "spiritus" meaning "a breath," from "spirare" meaning "to breathe."

The Greek word translated "spirit" is "pneuma" from which we get our adjective "pneumatic" as in a "pneumatic pump." It means "a wind; or by extension, a breath," stemming from "pneuoo" meaning "to breathe." It is the word in New Testament Greek to translate the Old Testament Hebrew word "ruwach," which means "a wind; or by extension, a breath."

It is not intended in Scripture to be used for "the immaterial part of man." That's a "definition" that was added much later when theology, which was greatly influenced by Greek philosophy and mythology, started to formulate a position for the majority church (the early RCC).

3 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The symbolism in the scriptures is very obvious, especially in the Revelation.

Look, I'm not saying that symbolism wasn't used; I'm saying that there's not as much symbolism in Revelation as one might think! Similes are obviously telegraphed with "like" or "as," but the metaphors are quite another matter. Some truly are metaphors, like the "Lamb which was slain" and "the Lion of the Tribe of Judah." Those are fairly obvious in context, but others that are CLAIMED to be metaphors really aren't!

This would be too long a post to continue. More later ...

 

[abcdef]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

People use these verses too generically, saying that they apply to the whole Scriptures, when in fact, that is NOT to what Paul was referring!

God is a spirit.

The things of God are taught to us by the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor 2:13.

If the prophecies, Revelation, are given to us by the Spirit, and the revealing of them to our minds and hearts is by the Spirit, then they should be understood using a spiritual approach,

good and evil, reason and chaos, light and darkness, guilt and redemption,

the spiritual Pentecost gospel kingdom of Christ and the spiritual kingdoms of Satan (the beast usually),

the blessings of protection under the covenant from God and the withdrawing of the covenant protection blessings from God.

Most of the Revelation is involved with the battle between good (love) and evil (no love, void of love), towards Israel flesh and spirit.

The part of evil is played primarily by Rome (iron, Dan. 2) and then the unbelieving gentile nations.

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Rome couldn't be mentioned by name as it was death or worse to write or speak anything against Caesar and Rome.

So the author, Jesus, used a symbol for Rome that would be understood by the spiritually minded readers, those who studied and understood the scriptures OT, which is,

The 4th gentile beast nation from Dan. 7 and the iron gentile nation from Dan. 2.

The people of Israel would know that the 4th beast gentile nation was Rome. The destruction of 70 AD Jerusalem and the temple also confirmed that Rome was the beast nation.

The beast, Babylon, the Antichrist (Caesar), the false prophet (Caesar), the dragon  with seven heads and 10 horns, are all facets of the Roman Empire (and the RCC).

You couldn't say "Rome and Caesar is a nasty beast", but probably you could say that, "Babylon is a nasty beast", and get away with it.

This shows that at the time that the Revelation was written some things had to be symbolized.

--

Then there is the element of time.

The symbols speak to us from 1900 years ago or more.

The specific meaning from God is given to us in the OT scriptures, generally. Thankfully the symbols are mostly universally understood, such as, being closer to God on the top of a mountain or further away from God in the abyss, or light and dark.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

One should really read these two verses in context and see what Paul was saying within that context:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we (d0) speak wisdom among them that are perfect (mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (secret), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written,

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (Isaiah 64:4)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For

"who hath known the mind of the LORD, that he may instruct him?" (Isaiah 40:13)

But we have the mind of Christ (the mind of the Messiah).

The scriptures are spiritual. Understanding them is spiritual, as they are revealed to us by the Spirit. The prophecies are spiritual understandings about God and what He is doing.

They are telling us and all, to get into the Ark of the Covenant of Jesus. Acts 2:38.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Now, here's where a good understanding of what "spirit" means will help: The word "spirit" itself comes from the Latin word "spiritus" meaning "a breath," from "spirare" meaning "to breathe."

The Greek word translated "spirit" is "pneuma" from which we get our adjective "pneumatic" as in a "pneumatic pump." It means "a wind; or by extension, a breath," stemming from "pneuoo" meaning "to breathe." It is the word in New Testament Greek to translate the Old Testament Hebrew word "ruwach," which means "a wind; or by extension, a breath."

When a person stops breathing and dies, then the spirit/soul leaves the body.

So the spirit is not just breathing, or a breathing entity.

The spirit/soul becomes separate from the body at death. 

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It is not intended in Scripture to be used for "the immaterial part of man." That's a "definition" that was added much later when theology, which was greatly influenced by Greek philosophy and mythology, started to formulate a position for the majority church (the early RCC).

Do you believe this or just saying? Because it seems that just the opposite is true. That the spirit/soul is an immaterial part of Man.

--

What about the "immaterial" parts of the locusts?

The spirits of the locusts?

What kind of spirits do they have?

Kind forgiving spirits? Or the spirits of darkness and blindness towards God and His people Israel?

Do they just want to hurt the body only?

Or are they more interested in trying to hide in the darkness, the gospel message of light and salvation, and then killing the soul by sin and guilt?

Their power is not only in the material world, but far more dangerous to the eternal soul by hiding salvation.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Look, I'm not saying that symbolism wasn't used; I'm saying that there's not as much symbolism in Revelation as one might think! Similes are obviously telegraphed with "like" or "as," but the metaphors are quite another matter. Some truly are metaphors, like the "Lamb which was slain" and "the Lion of the Tribe of Judah." Those are fairly obvious in context,

It just seems to me that almost every word, number, or passage has symbolism in it. A communication from God to people, from one Spirit to another spirit.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

but others that are CLAIMED to be metaphors really aren't!

Which ones?

Locusts?

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This would be too long a post to continue. More later ...

Yes, I know what you mean.

[abcdef]

Why is it that locusts come out of the abyss, instead of something else?

Is it something about the symbolism associated with locusts?

Edited March 26, 2022 by abcdef

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

...

The symbolism in the scriptures is very obvious, especially in the Revelation.

Rev 5:6, "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth unto all the earth."

Here the symbolism is explained by the context and the author.

The horns and eyes are symbols that are representing literal Spirits of the Lamb.

The seven Spirits of God are real, but are expressed in the vision as eyes and horns.

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Shabbat shalom, abcdef.

Okay, before I get to your last post, I'm going back to finish this one, first.

If you want symbolism, I'm afraid that "you might be slipping into the abyss of endless symbolism and allegory!"

How is using more symbolism explaining the symbols? SOMETHING must be concrete and simple to understand in order to have a BASIS on which to build the allegory! To say otherwise is to build a house of cards that will fall over with the first puff of air! you said "literal Spirits of the Lamb." What do you mean by "Spirits?"

The first problem is that one doesn't have a clear definition of the terms that we are using! One just uses the words in a way that SUGGESTS a definition in the usage of the words, but leaves it to the readers to discover what that definition might be!

Let's just continue in this one verse: If the horns and eyes are symbols of the seven spirits of God, then one must know what the "seven spirits of God" are! One cannot just use the word "spirits" without first defining the word! And, just to cover the base before we come to it, one should also NOT use the Mediaeval definition of the word! They believed they were justified to discuss how many angels could dance on the head of a pin! Their definitions, at best, would still be suspect!

-o-

I believe that the best definitions are found in the etymology of a word. What was the CORE MEANING of a word? Most dictionaries list every possible meaning and usage of a word - the UNION of all the possible meanings of a word - for its definition of that word. I will take all the possible meanings of a word and look for their INTERSECTION; that is, what do all these possible meanings have in common? That is often found in how the word developed, down through the centuries.

English is a very complex language, having been derived from a mix of other languages down through time: Anglo-Saxon, German, French, Italian, Latin, Greek, and a host of others thrown less generously into the mix. For an example, let's look at the simple word "file":

The dictionary brings up three main definitions:

___

file 1 | fīl | 

noun 

a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a particular order for easy reference: a file of correspondence. 

• the contents of a file folder or box. 
• Computing a collection of data, programs, etc., stored in a computer's memory or on a storage device under a single identifying name: do you want to save this file? | [as modifier ] :  a file name. 

verb [with object ] 

place (a document) in a cabinet, box, or folder in a particular order for preservation and easy reference: the contract, when signed, is filed | figurative :  he still had the moment filed away in his memory. 

• submit (a legal document, application, or charge) to be placed on record by the appropriate authority: criminal charges were filed against the firm | [no object ] :  the company had filed for bankruptcy. 
• (of a reporter) send (a story) to a newspaper or news organization. 

PHRASES 

on file 
in a file or filing system. 

DERIVATIVES 

filer | ˈfīlər | noun

ORIGIN late Middle English (as a verb meaning ‘string documents on a thread or wire to keep them in order’): from French filer ‘to string’, fil ‘a thread’, both from Latin filum ‘a thread’. Compare with file2.

file 2 | fīl | 

noun 

a line of people or things one behind another: Plains Cree warriors riding in file down the slopes. 

• Military a small detachment of troops: a file of English soldiers had ridden out from Perth. 
• Chess each of the eight rows of eight squares on a chessboard running away from the player toward the opponent. Compare with rank 1 (sense 2 of the noun).

verb [no object, with adverbial of direction ] 

(of a group of people) walk one behind the other, typically in an orderly and solemn manner: the mourners filed into the church. 

ORIGIN 

late 16th century: from French file, from filer ‘to string’.

file 3 | fīl | 

noun 

a tool with a roughened surface or surfaces, typically of steel, used for smoothing or shaping a hard material: it is possible to make the necessary notch with a file. 

verb [with object ] 

smooth or shape (something) with a file: when I have nothing else to do, I file my nails. 

• (file something away/off) remove something by grinding it off with a file: the engine numbers were filed away. 

DERIVATIVES 

filer | ˈfīlər | noun 

ORIGIN 

Old English fīl, of West Germanic origin; related to Dutch vijl and German Feile.
___

Notice that file 1 and file 2 are different in origin than file 3. File 1 and File 2 come from the French, while file 3 comes from German. The first two are based upon words that mean "to string," but the third is based upon words that mean "to smooth."

-o-

Now, let's look up the word "spirit" in the dictionary:

I'll let you look up all the goofy ways that we use the word and get down to the etymology:

ORIGIN 

Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from Latin spiritus ‘breath, spirit (circular)’, from spirare ‘breathe’.

-o-

The Greek word translated as "spirit" is the word "pneuma." Here's Strong's dictionary definition:

4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From πνέω pneoo; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit (circular), i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit (circular), the Holy Spirit (circular)
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare ψυχή psuchee.

4154 πνέω pneoo (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare ψύχω psuchoo.

And, to complete the thought with the comparison, 

5594 ψύχω psuchoo. A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively)
-- wax cold.

5590 ψυχή psuchee (psoo'-khay). From ψύχω psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from πνεῦμα pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from ζωή zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, רוּחַ ruwach and חַי chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

-o-

This last definition makes the LINK between Greek and Hebrew:

5315 נֶפֶשׁ nefesh (nephesh) (neh'-fesh). From נָפַשׁ naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 נָפַשׁ naafash (naphash) (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-akh) [noun]. From רוּחַ ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

7306 רוּחַ ruwach (roo-akh') [verb]. A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy)
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

2416 חַי chay (khah'-ee). From חָיָה chaayaah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively
-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

2421 חָיָה chaayaah (khaw-yaw'). A primitive root (compare chavah, chayah); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive
-- keep (live, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

-o-

Can you see the root definition of "spirit" here?

Latin: spiritus ‘breath’, from spirare ‘breathe’
Greek: pneuma 'a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze', from pneoo 'to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze, blow'
Hebrew: ruwach 'wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation', from ruwach 'to blow, i.e. Breathe'

So, based on all this, how do you define "literal Spirits of the Lamb?"

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What about the slain Lamb in the middle of the throne and everything else? What does it mean that the Lamb was in the middle?

This is easy. You're not reading the whole thing for clarity. The Greek translated word-for-word says, 

"And I saw in the middle of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the middle of the twenty-four elders, a lamb standing as having been slain, having horns seven and eyes seven, which are the seven winds of God, having been sent out into all the earth."

So, Yeshua` was standing in the middle of 5 things, and in the middle of 24 things. It clearly means that He was standing LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE of the room, before the throne of God, among the four living creatures, and within the circle of 24 elders!

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What does it mean that the  Lamb was slain?

It means that the Sacrificial LAMB OF GOD was indeed killed! Why is that so difficult? Yeshua` was claimed by Yochanan the Immerser to be HaKeves Elohiym - The Lamb of God.

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What does it mean by saying that the seven eyes and seven horn Spirits were part of the lamb? In a sense, they are the Lamb?

Aw, you made that up! What it said was "a lamb standing as having been slain, HAVING horns seven and eyes seven." The Greek word "echoon" means "having" or "holding" or "possessing" the seven horns and seven eyes.

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

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The passages don't necessarily explain some of the symbolism or exactly how the symbols should be interpreted,

but the explanation of how the symbolism should be understood, is found in other passages of scriptures that use the same explanations.

For example, the use of "waters" for people or nations. Rev 17:15, Isa 8:7-8.

I can agree to that much; however, it still doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is symbolic!

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

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Rev 13:1, A beast rises up out of the sea, who has seven heads and 10 horns, literal or symbolic? Or symbolism representing an entity that is real?

Is it literally the sea? Or are the waters a symbol of people and nations?

What does it mean when it says that he rises up out of the sea?

What are the heads and horns and what do they symbolize? Well they are explained in Rev 17, but not in the context of the Rev 13 passage.

--

Here is the point,

The symbols themselves are not the intended subject, but the real entity or event that the symbols represent is the intended subject.

That is, trying to make the symbols into literal objects changes the meaning of the passage.

I might also point out just the opposite. When a thing is said to be real, to make it into a symbol of something else ALSO changes the meaning of the passage!

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

We all agree that there is symbolism in the Bible and especially the Revelation, but it is deciding what is literal or what the symbolism is trying to represent that are the variables.

----

I say instead, it is better to allow something to be literal until you are TOLD it represents something else! Otherwise, who's in charge of interpreting the words of Revelation, God or YOU? Is GOD in charge of determining what is allegorical and symbolic or do you determine that for yourself? This is the ONE book of the Bible that has a CURSE at the end of it should anyone take it upon themselves to change the meanings of the words in its text! I submit to you that changing the literal information into some nebulous symbolism changes the text of this book! As we used to say in Bible college, "Lightning rods up!"

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

The star that falls from heaven is Satan. He does not leave heaven and God willingly, he is pushed out and falls.

To him, not a meteor, was given the key to the abyss, by Jesus Rev 1:18.

 

Satan opens the abyss, the place of the dead, A place separated from the living, Lk 8:31, Rom 10:7.

Only Satan would unleash this evil, no good person would. Satan has a choice, open the abyss or don't, but he choose suffering and pain instead of love.

Nope! This is what I'm talking about! The star - Greek: astera, the accusative form of asteer - from which we get our word "astronomy," means JUST THAT, A STAR!

It is WRONG to re-interpret this as though it was some person, good or bad! The "him" is really a translation error! It's a masculine word; therefore, someone gave it masculine pronouns, but a star is no more masculine than to say that one's car is feminine because "that Ol' Betsy of mine is a really sweet old girl!"

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What does the air represent? Suffocation of the spirit?

It's the air that we breathe. Doh!

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What does the sun represent? God's light? Understanding about God, Jesus, and salvation?

Heavens, no! The sun is the SUN, the star around which our planet revolves! It's helios in Greek!

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

When those who hold the scriptures suffer, the light that leads to salvation is dimmed, because the gospel is dimmed.

Oh, brother! Get your head out of the clouds and get back to reality! It's not the "gospel" that is dimmed by the smoky air; it's the SUN!

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What does a locust represent in symbolism?

Can you answer?

It doesn't represent ANYTHING by symbolism! It's a big bug with a stinger and teeth! 

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

What is a scorpion in scriptural symbolism?

False prophets as shown in Isa 9:15-16.

The sting of sin is death 1 Cor 15:55-56.

You're taking this MUCH too far. Remember: If one changes the meaning of the text; that is, if one shall "TAKE AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Those aren't my words, y'know.

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

Pain and guilt from sin, ending in spiritual death.

So,.... How is it that these "bugs", know the difference between the saved and the unsaved? The sealed and the unsealed?

In a crowd that is attacked by the bugs, only the unsealed are stung and suffer? And the sealed are not effected at all? Never bitten?

Well, I'd say that God places the seal upon His people, and then gives these creatures the INSTINCT to avoid that seal! That's pretty basic when it comes to how God gives animals sense to avoid things.

22 hours ago, abcdef said:

The death that men seek is to die to this world and rise in the newness of life towards God, Rom 6:1-11.

That's just NONSENSE! These people who are stung WANT to die! They just CAN'T! Wow! You don't even know what you're reading any more!

[abcdef]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, abcdef.

Okay, before I get to your last post, I'm going back to finish this one, first.

If you want symbolism, I'm afraid that "you might be slipping into the abyss of endless symbolism and allegory!"

How is using more symbolism explaining the symbols? SOMETHING must be concrete and simple to understand in order to have a BASIS on which to build the allegory! To say otherwise is to build a house of cards that will fall over with the first puff of air! you said "literal Spirits of the Lamb." What do you mean by "Spirits?"

The first problem is that one doesn't have a clear definition of the terms that we are using! One just uses the words in a way that SUGGESTS a definition in the usage of the words, but leaves it to the readers to discover what that definition might be!

Let's just continue in this one verse: If the horns and eyes are symbols of the seven spirits of God, then one must know what the "seven spirits of God" are! One cannot just use the word "spirits" without first defining the word! And, just to cover the base before we come to it, one should also NOT use the Mediaeval definition of the word! They believed they were justified to discuss how many angels could dance on the head of a pin! Their definitions, at best, would still be suspect!

-o-

I believe that the best definitions are found in the etymology of a word. What was the CORE MEANING of a word? Most dictionaries list every possible meaning and usage of a word - the UNION of all the possible meanings of a word - for its definition of that word. I will take all the possible meanings of a word and look for their INTERSECTION; that is, what do all these possible meanings have in common? That is often found in how the word developed, down through the centuries.

English is a very complex language, having been derived from a mix of other languages down through time: Anglo-Saxon, German, French, Italian, Latin, Greek, and a host of others thrown less generously into the mix. For an example, let's look at the simple word "file":

The dictionary brings up three main definitions:

___

file 1 | fīl | 

noun 

a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a particular order for easy reference: a file of correspondence. 

• the contents of a file folder or box. 
• Computing a collection of data, programs, etc., stored in a computer's memory or on a storage device under a single identifying name: do you want to save this file? | [as modifier ] :  a file name. 

verb [with object ] 

place (a document) in a cabinet, box, or folder in a particular order for preservation and easy reference: the contract, when signed, is filed | figurative :  he still had the moment filed away in his memory. 

• submit (a legal document, application, or charge) to be placed on record by the appropriate authority: criminal charges were filed against the firm | [no object ] :  the company had filed for bankruptcy. 
• (of a reporter) send (a story) to a newspaper or news organization. 

PHRASES 

on file 
in a file or filing system. 

DERIVATIVES 

filer | ˈfīlər | noun

ORIGIN late Middle English (as a verb meaning ‘string documents on a thread or wire to keep them in order’): from French filer ‘to string’, fil ‘a thread’, both from Latin filum ‘a thread’. Compare with file2.

file 2 | fīl | 

noun 

a line of people or things one behind another: Plains Cree warriors riding in file down the slopes. 

• Military a small detachment of troops: a file of English soldiers had ridden out from Perth. 
• Chess each of the eight rows of eight squares on a chessboard running away from the player toward the opponent. Compare with rank 1 (sense 2 of the noun).

verb [no object, with adverbial of direction ] 

(of a group of people) walk one behind the other, typically in an orderly and solemn manner: the mourners filed into the church. 

ORIGIN 

late 16th century: from French file, from filer ‘to string’.

file 3 | fīl | 

noun 

a tool with a roughened surface or surfaces, typically of steel, used for smoothing or shaping a hard material: it is possible to make the necessary notch with a file. 

verb [with object ] 

smooth or shape (something) with a file: when I have nothing else to do, I file my nails. 

• (file something away/off) remove something by grinding it off with a file: the engine numbers were filed away. 

DERIVATIVES 

filer | ˈfīlər | noun 

ORIGIN 

Old English fīl, of West Germanic origin; related to Dutch vijl and German Feile.
___

Notice that file 1 and file 2 are different in origin than file 3. File 1 and File 2 come from the French, while file 3 comes from German. The first two are based upon words that mean "to string," but the third is based upon words that mean "to smooth."

-o-

Now, let's look up the word "spirit" in the dictionary:

I'll let you look up all the goofy ways that we use the word and get down to the etymology:

ORIGIN 

Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from Latin spiritus ‘breath, spirit (circular)’, from spirare ‘breathe’.

-o-

The Greek word translated as "spirit" is the word "pneuma." Here's Strong's dictionary definition:

4151 πνεῦμα pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From πνέω pneoo; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit (circular), i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit (circular), the Holy Spirit (circular)
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare ψυχή psuchee.

4154 πνέω pneoo (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare ψύχω psuchoo.

And, to complete the thought with the comparison, 

5594 ψύχω psuchoo. A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively)
-- wax cold.

5590 ψυχή psuchee (psoo'-khay). From ψύχω psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from πνεῦμα pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from ζωή zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, רוּחַ ruwach and חַי chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

-o-

This last definition makes the LINK between Greek and Hebrew:

5315 נֶפֶשׁ nefesh (nephesh) (neh'-fesh). From נָפַשׁ naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 נָפַשׁ naafash (naphash) (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-akh) [noun]. From רוּחַ ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

7306 רוּחַ ruwach (roo-akh') [verb]. A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy)
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

2416 חַי chay (khah'-ee). From חָיָה chaayaah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively
-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

2421 חָיָה chaayaah (khaw-yaw'). A primitive root (compare chavah, chayah); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive
-- keep (live, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

-o-

Can you see the root definition of "spirit" here?

Latin: spiritus ‘breath’, from spirare ‘breathe’
Greek: pneuma 'a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze', from pneoo 'to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze, blow'
Hebrew: ruwach 'wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation', from ruwach 'to blow, i.e. Breathe'

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

So, based on all this, how do you define "literal Spirits of the Lamb?"

A spirit is a living substance created by God.

As an example, Adam was a body without a spirit until God "breathed" into him, then Adam became a living soul.

The act of giving Adam a spirit is shown as part of God, the breath, entering into the body of Adam.

The substance of the breath of God is a living spirit that was part of God, but was given to Adam to be a separate entity in a material body. This is shown by Adam walking and talking with God in the garden before sin. Psalms 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High".

  After sin Adam was removed from the presence of God. His spiritual substance had been altered from the purity of the living breath of God.

-

The seven Spirits of God are the same spiritual substance as God.

No image of God can be made, so exactly what the living substance spirit of God is, cannot be described in a material form or by physics, or understood completely in detail by man. 

The Spirits of God are described as love, mercy, righteousness, purity, wisdom, understanding, etc.. But these are only describing the attributes of the Spirit and not the substance of the Spirit, which would be found in seeing God or seeing the face of God.

So if you are looking for a description of the substance of God, that is, what God is made of, or exactly what the substance of the spirit is, you will not be able to understand using the parameters of the material world.

The best we can understand is the result, or the effects, of the Spirits on the material world and the human souls.

The embodiment of the 7 Spirits is centered in the gospel message as seen in the seven congregations in Rev 1:20, Rev 4:5.

The seven Spirits of God is found in the seven congregations, which is the gospel.

---

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

This is easy. You're not reading the whole thing for clarity. The Greek translated word-for-word says, 

"And I saw in the middle of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the middle of the twenty-four elders, a lamb standing as having been slain, having horns seven and eyes seven, which are the seven winds of God, having been sent out into all the earth."

So, Yeshua` was standing in the middle of 5 things, and in the middle of 24 things. It clearly means that He was standing LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE of the room, before the throne of God, among the four living creatures, and within the circle of 24 elders!

The Lamb was not before the throne, He was in the middle of the throne, as God.

That is the meaning of being in the midst/middle of the throne.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

It means that the Sacrificial LAMB OF GOD was indeed killed! Why is that so difficult? Yeshua` was claimed by Yochanan the Immerser to be HaKeves Elohiym - The Lamb of God.

So you understand the symbolism, without being told specifically what is meant.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Aw, you made that up! What it said was "a lamb standing as having been slain, HAVING horns seven and eyes seven." The Greek word "echoon" means "having" or "holding" or "possessing" the seven horns and seven eyes.

The eyes and horns are part of the Lamb. 

Do you thing that the eyes and horns are separate from the Lamb?

If a Lamb has 7 horns, they would be on His head. The eyes would be in His head.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

I can agree to that much; however, it still doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is symbolic!

The symbols are not the subject. What the symbols represent is the subject.

The eyes and horns on the Lamb are not the subject. What the eyes and horns represent are the subject.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

I might also point out just the opposite. When a thing is said to be real, to make it into a symbol of something else ALSO changes the meaning of the passage!

I agree. Everything should be examined as to whether there is symbolism or not.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

I say instead, it is better to allow something to be literal until you are TOLD it represents something else!

If you are relying on people to tell you whether things are symbolic or not, you can find people on both sides. 

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Otherwise, who's in charge of interpreting the words of Revelation, God or YOU? Is GOD in charge of determining what is allegorical and symbolic or do you determine that for yourself?

Who told you that the slain Lamb was symbolic of Jesus?

A person? Or did you figure that out for yourself?

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

This is the ONE book of the Bible that has a CURSE at the end of it should anyone take it upon themselves to change the meanings of the words in its text! I submit to you that changing the literal information into some nebulous symbolism changes the text of this book! As we used to say in Bible college, "Lightning rods up!"

What is symbolic and what is not can be determined by studying the scriptures.

To just say that everything is literal, as some do, without allowing for the symbolism, also distorts the meaning.

The literalists are afraid to examine the possibility of symbolism, because their theories and timelines will fall apart. So they just automatically dismiss any symbolism that is shown.

As soon as you start to show them the symbolism they cover their ears and shout, "All is literal, All is literal".

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Nope! This is what I'm talking about! The star - Greek: astera, the accusative form of asteer - from which we get our word "astronomy," means JUST THAT, A STAR!.

It is WRONG to re-interpret this as though it was some person, good or bad! The "him" is really a translation error! It's a masculine word; therefore, someone gave it masculine pronouns, but a star is no more masculine than to say that one's car is feminine because "that Ol' Betsy of mine is a really sweet old girl!"

So a star is never symbolic of a person?

Or is it symbolic of the seed of Abraham? The brothers of Jacob? The angels?

"Him" is a translation error? How many other translation errors are there? Maybe the whole Bible is a translation error? Is that what you are saying? That the word disagrees with what you want it to say,  so you say that is an error in the text?

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

It's the air that we breathe. Doh!

What does the air represent in symbolism?

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Heavens, no! The sun is the SUN, the star around which our planet revolves! It's helios in Greek!

Psa 84:11, Gen 37:9

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Oh, brother! Get your head out of the clouds and get back to reality! It's not the "gospel" that is dimmed by the smoky air; it's the SUN!

Psa 84:11, "For the Lord God is a sun and shield: ... "

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

It doesn't represent ANYTHING by symbolism! It's a big bug with a stinger and teeth! 

So sad.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

You're taking this MUCH too far. Remember: If one changes the meaning of the text; that is, if one shall "TAKE AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Those aren't my words, y'know.

The literalist predetermined viewpoint does just that, changes the meaning.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Well, I'd say that God places the seal upon His people, and then gives these creatures the INSTINCT to avoid that seal! That's pretty basic when it comes to how God gives animals sense to avoid things.

Really? The bugs only bite sinners and not saints?

That shows that the bugs, false prophets Isa 9:15-16, really are symbolic and not literal.

Real bugs would bite everybody.

Consider this, Prov 30:27, "The locusts have no king, ..."

But these "locusts" do have a king, therefore they are not real locusts, because they have a king.

 

On 3/27/2022 at 2:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

That's just NONSENSE! These people who are stung WANT to die! They just CAN'T! Wow! You don't even know what you're reading any more!

They can't die? 

Again, you are thinking that the death is a physical death and not a spiritual death to this world, to become alive to God, to be born again.

Read Rom 6:1-11, to understand what death it is that people seek.

The false prophets hide the fact that belief, repentance, baptism, faithfulness, and grace lead to eternal life.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

A spirit is a living substance created by God.

Shalom, abcdef.

"Living substance?" NONSENSE! There is substance behind a wind, but it's the molecules of the air that is moved by the energy derived by a change in air pressures.

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

As an example, Adam was a body without a spirit until God "breathed" into him, then Adam became a living soul.

Nope! Wrong word! The word "ruwach" (translated as "wind" or "spirit") wasn't used in Genesis 2:7. The word used was "nishmat," a "PUFF" of air! He just "kick-started" the human body He created to make it breathe on its own. The "soul" is an "air-breathing creature." He created it ready to go; with blood pumping throughout the body; He started the respiration process by which we exchange gases in the blood, oxygenating the blood, and discarding carbon dioxide as a waste product. THIS is what happened in Genesis 2:7.

Nothing was "added," so to speak, to the man (ha'Aadaam). God just started the bellows to pull air in and push air out of the lungs.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (Hebrew: Vayyiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'Aadaam aafaar min-haa'adaamaah = "And-formed YHWH God (the next word is the direct object) the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground]"), and breathed (Hebrew: vayyippah = "and-puffed") into his nostrils the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat chayyiym = "a-puff of-living-things"); and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayyaah = "to-an-air-breathing-creature living").

After having created the Man (the body that would breathe), He sustained the body until He could puff into his nostrils the puff of living things, and then it became a SELF-SUSTAINING, air-breathing creature!

There's no "immaterial part" found within this verse!

Only if you agree that the "spirit" is the "breath" of an individual, will I accept your statement that "Adam was a body without a spirit (breath) until God breathed into him." The man became a living, air-breathing creature.

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

The act of giving Adam a spirit is shown as part of God, the breath, entering into the body of Adam.

The substance of the breath of God is a living spirit that was part of God, but was given to Adam to be a separate entity in a material body. This is shown by Adam walking and talking with God in the garden before sin. Psalms 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High".

See, this is where we must differ. The breath is not a "substance," other than the air molecules in the atmosphere. There's no such thing as a "living spirit." It's not "the breath that is living," it's the breath that gives life to the air-breather!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

  After sin Adam was removed from the presence of God. His spiritual substance had been altered from the purity of the living breath of God.

NO! There's no such thing as "spiritual substance" in the way you're suggesting! That is NOT what changed with Adam sinned. Instead, when they sinned they began to die right away. That is, they began to decay and they were dying one cell at a time. That is what God said would happen, and that is precisely what happened in the curse. 930 years later, Adam died when the number of cells dying outnumbered the cells being made, until the organs failed and he died.

First, God warned him,

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Then, in the curse we read:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

And, then we read of his death:

Genesis 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name "Adam," in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

-

The seven Spirits of God are the same spiritual substance as God.

No image of God can be made, so exactly what the living substance spirit of God is, cannot be described in a material form or by physics, or understood completely in detail by man. 

The Spirits of God are described as love, mercy, righteousness, purity, wisdom, understanding, etc.. But these are only describing the attributes of the Spirit and not the substance of the Spirit, which would be found in seeing God or seeing the face of God.

So if you are looking for a description of the substance of God, that is, what God is made of, or exactly what the substance of the spirit is, you will not be able to understand using the parameters of the material world.

The best we can understand is the result, or the effects, of the Spirits on the material world and the human souls.

The embodiment of the 7 Spirits is centered in the gospel message as seen in the seven congregations in Rev 1:20, Rev 4:5.

The seven Spirits of God is found in the seven congregations, which is the gospel.

---

This is just nonsense. The seven Spirits are seven WINDS. One cannot see the wind, unless there are droplets of condensed water in the atmosphere, such as a fog or the clouds. One can only see the EFFECTS of the wind upon the objects around it and in it.

Talk about grasping for straws only to have the wind blow them out of reach!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

The Lamb was not before the throne, He was in the middle of the throne, as God.

That is the meaning of being in the midst/middle of the throne.

Nope. You're not reading this verse correctly! He was not standing in the middle of the throne alone; He was standing in the middle of the throne and the four living beings, as a group of five objects!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

So you understand the symbolism, without being told specifically what is meant.

 

The eyes and horns are part of the Lamb. 

Do you think that the eyes and horns are separate from the Lamb?

If a Lamb has 7 horns, they would be on His head. The eyes would be in His head.

Perhaps, but you don't know that from this wording!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

The symbols are not the subject. What the symbols represent is the subject.

The eyes and horns on the Lamb are not the subject. What the eyes and horns represent are the subject.

 

I agree. Everything should be examined as to whether there is symbolism or not.

 

If you are relying on people to tell you whether things are symbolic or not, you can find people on both sides. 

 

Who told you that the slain Lamb was symbolic of Jesus?

A person? Or did you figure that out for yourself?

Yochanan the Immerser ("John the Baptist"). He's the one who said,

John 1:29-36 (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me cometh a man which is preferred before me': for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."

32 And John bare record, saying,

"I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God!"

Yochanan or John the Apostle was the one who noted this in His Gospel, who also happened to be the one who wrote the book of Revelation.

HOWEVER, this wasn't so "symbolic" after all! For Yeshua` was INDEED haKeves Elohiym, the Lamb of God sacrificed on the cross for the forgiveness of sins! He was the Pesach Lamb, the Passover Lamb, giving His life on the day that the Passover lambs were slain on the day of preparation!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

What is symbolic and what is not can be determined by studying the scriptures.

To just say that everything is literal, as some do, without allowing for the symbolism, also distorts the meaning.

The literalists are afraid to examine the possibility of symbolism, because their theories and timelines will fall apart. So they just automatically dismiss any symbolism that is shown.

As soon as you start to show them the symbolism they cover their ears and shout, "All is literal, All is literal".

I don't have that malady. I just know that God wants us to believe the Word AS WRITTEN without all the "fluff!"

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

So a star is never symbolic of a person?

ONLY if it is SAID to be symbolic of a person! In the case of the Revelation 9, it is NOT said to be representative of any person, angelic or otherwise; it's a FALLING STAR or a SHOOTING STAR! It's too bad if that messes with your symbolism! It's not said to be symbolic of ANYTHING or ANYONE! It's a HUNK OF ROCK that falls to the earth!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

Or is it symbolic of the seed of Abraham? The brothers of Jacob? The angels?

NOT in this context! Symbolism is not permanently "locked in"; it doesn't always mean the same thing in multiple locations!

The "leaven of the Pharisees" is understood in Matthew 16:

Matthew 16:5-12 (KJV)

5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said unto them,

"Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, 

"It is because we have taken no bread."

8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them,

"O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?"

12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of "the leaven" OF BREAD, but of "THE DOCTRINE" of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

HOWEVER,

the Kingdom of Heaven is LIKENED unto leaven in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

In this passage of Scripture, Yeshua` is not saying the "leaven" was a bad thing at all! He was saying that the Kingdom will act like leaven: A small amount of the Kingdom within the kingdoms of the world will be like a small influence at first, but it will grow in influence until it affects the whole world!

So, it's WRONG to think of leaven as an evil doctrine in all cases! It all depends on how the symbolism is used within a particular context! The CONTEXT determines the usage of any symbols one might apply!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

"Him" is a translation error? How many other translation errors are there? Maybe the whole Bible is a translation error? Is that what you are saying? That the word disagrees with what you want it to say,  so you say that is an error in the text?

No, I say it's a translation error because the same mistake is not made in other passages of Scripture! You weren't paying attention: An inanimate object, like a shooting star, should not be given "personifications" simply because the word is a masculine word!

It may be endearing to hear, but one shouldn't personify a piece of machinery, like a car, calling it "Ol' Betsy!" and saying, "She's been good to me." That might be a technique applied to a piece of fiction, but the Word of God is NOT fiction!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

What does the air represent in symbolism?

 

Psa 84:11, Gen 37:9

 

Psa 84:11, "For the Lord God is a sun and shield: ... "

 

So sad.

 

The literalist predetermined viewpoint does just that, changes the meaning.

 

Really? The bugs only bite sinners and not saints?

That shows that the bugs, false prophets Isa 9:15-16, really are symbolic and not literal.

Real bugs would bite everybody.

Consider this, Prov 30:27, "The locusts have no king, ..."

But these "locusts" do have a king, therefore they are not real locusts, because they have a king.

Ants have a queen, and we don't question that they are real ants, do we? How many ants are male? Did you know that it's only the winged drones who are male? All of the worker ants are female, and of course, the queen is female. Also, new queens, also winged, will fly and mate with a drone to produce new ant nests.

Bees, likewise, have queens, drones, and worker bees. Again, the queens and worker bees are female. Only the drones are males. Just the same, we don't think that bees aren't real bees, do we?

These locusts will have a king, the only male of the species, all others are female. They cannot reproduce without the contribution of the king upon their eggs. If the king dies, so will the species! And, indeed, the species dies off after 5 months.

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

They can't die? 

Again, you are thinking that the death is a physical death and not a spiritual death to this world, to become alive to God, to be born again.

There's no reason to think this way in this passage of Scripture! The victims cannot die! The poison of the stingers in their tails is not enough to kill the victims! Instead, they will lie there, wishing they could die, but because the toxin is that of an Egyptian scorpion, it PARALYZES the victim and they are not able to move or to speak!

That's what the Scriptures say and imply:

Revelation 9:3-6 (KJV)

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Quit trying to say, "that means this" and "this means that," and just take the Word of God at its face value!

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

Read Rom 6:1-11, to understand what death it is that people seek.

The false prophets hide the fact that belief, repentance, baptism, faithfulness, and grace lead to eternal life.

That's NOT what's being discussed here! Not everything is about what you think it should be about!

[abcdef]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

"Living substance?" NONSENSE!

Yes, a living substance.

It is on the spiritual level so that is not generally seen by the eye or detectable by people, most of the time.

It is the living spiritual material that makes up the essence of the spirits and souls.

What do you think that God is made of? What substance is it that He is made of? What is His essence? Can you explain His "body"?

There is a God, maybe you would agree. Jesus said that God is Spirit, Jn 4:24.

God existed before creation, is with us now, and will exist for all eternity.

What is God made of? Spiritual substance that cannot be revealed to people unless it is revealed to them.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

There is substance behind a wind, but it's the molecules of the air that is moved by the energy derived by a change in air pressures.

There is substance in the spiritual wind, breath, also, but not detectable by people.

As when God "puffed" into Adam. The Substance behind that breath/wind was the living spiritual substance of God's Spirit entering into Adam. Psm 82:6, "Ye are gods", "children of the most High".

God giving a spirit/soul to His material creation.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Nope! Wrong word! The word "ruwach" (translated as "wind" or "spirit") wasn't used in Genesis 2:7. The word used was "nishmat," a "PUFF" of air! He just "kick-started" the human body He created to make it breathe on its own. The "soul" is an "air-breathing creature." He created it ready to go; with blood pumping throughout the body; He started the respiration process by which we exchange gases in the blood, oxygenating the blood, and discarding carbon dioxide as a waste product. THIS is what happened in Genesis 2:7.

Nothing was "added," so to speak, to the man (ha'Aadaam). God just started the bellows to pull air in and push air out of the lungs.

The human soul is more than just the 4 elements of creation, earth, water, fire(heat), and air.

He has a spirit, that was given to him at the time of creation.

Lk 10:27 shows that there is more to people than just a material body. There is also heart and mind. These were all given to Adam to make a complete soul.

You can say that when God puffed, He gave Adam the created air element, but without giving Adam a heart and mind also Jn 10:27, Adam could not meet the requirements to become a living soul.

God gave Adam more than O2.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (Hebrew: Vayyiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'Aadaam aafaar min-haa'adaamaah = "And-formed YHWH God (the next word is the direct object) the-red-[man] of-dust from-the-red-[ground]"), and breathed (Hebrew: vayyippah = "and-puffed") into his nostrils the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat chayyiym = "a-puff of-living-things"); and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayyaah = "to-an-air-breathing-creature living").

After having created the Man (the body that would breathe), He sustained the body until He could puff into his nostrils the puff of living things, and then it became a SELF-SUSTAINING, air-breathing creature!

With a heart, mind, and strength, not just exclusively the 4 created elements.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

There's no "immaterial part" found within this verse!

God is immaterial to us. That is, He is not made of the 4 elements, or light, as the rest of creation, He is spirit.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Only if you agree that the "spirit" is the "breath" of an individual, will I accept your statement that "Adam was a body without a spirit (breath) until God breathed into him." The man became a living, air-breathing creature.

The animals are "living air-breathing creatures", Are you an animal the same as them? Yes we are, in a physical/material way,  but Jesus didn't die for their sins, He died for our sins, to remove a spiritual blemish of guilt.

So we are the children of God, Pssm 82:6, and the animals are not.

It was the puff and the substance behind the "puff" that was the difference, we are the children of God, not the animals.

God created life, but He did not give animals souls, only spirits.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

See, this is where we must differ. The breath is not a "substance," other than the air molecules in the atmosphere.

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

There's no such thing as a "living spirit."

Will you say that there is no God?

God is a living Spirit?

What do you mean that there is no such thing?

Your eternal life depends on it.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

It's not "the breath that is living," it's the breath that gives life to the air-breather!

In Adam's case it was, living breath, as Adam became a living soul with a heart and mind.

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

NO! There's no such thing as "spiritual substance" in the way you're suggesting! That is NOT what changed with Adam sinned.

Adam sinned. Gen 3:10 " ... , I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."

It was not a physical change, but a change in the heart and the mind of the soul/spirit. Part of the unseen, immaterial, the living spiritual substance.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Instead, when they sinned they began to die right away. That is, they began to decay and they were dying one cell at a time. That is what God said would happen, and that is precisely what happened in the curse. 930 years later, Adam died when the number of cells dying outnumbered the cells being made, until the organs failed and he died.

True.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

First, God warned him,

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

" ... In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

Adam did die the day that He ate the fruit. He became separated from the presence of God.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Then, in the curse we read:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

And, then we read of his death:

Genesis 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name "Adam," in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Yes Adam died. the body returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God, Ecc 12:7. 

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

This is just nonsense. The seven Spirits are seven WINDS. One cannot see the wind, unless there are droplets of condensed water in the atmosphere, such as a fog or the clouds. One can only see the EFFECTS of the wind upon the objects around it and in it.

The winds sometimes are symbols of spirits Jn 3:8

-

In the case of the 7 Spirits of God, it says that they are the seven lamps Rev 4:5.

Rev 1:20, the lampstands are the seven churches.

Are the churches actual lampstands, that would be candle holders or People?

Why are the 7 churches symbolized as lampstands? The gospel? Light of the world?

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Talk about grasping for straws only to have the wind blow them out of reach!

You wish! Dream on.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Nope. You're not reading this verse correctly! He was not standing in the middle of the throne alone; He was standing in the middle of the throne and the four living beings, as a group of five objects!

There were many more than 5 objects, 24 elders, etc..

The point is that only God could be in the center of the throne, and everything, and Jesus was there as God.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Perhaps, but you don't know that from this wording!

I know that the seven Spirits were in the possession of the Lamb.

And that the horns and eyes represent something.

What do the eyes represent?

What do the horns represent?

You are only focused on the symbols as the subject,

Rather that what the symbols represent, as the subject.

Try to understand what the symbols represent.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Yochanan the Immerser ("John the Baptist"). He's the one who said,

John 1:29-36 (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me cometh a man which is preferred before me': for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."

32 And John bare record, saying,

"I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God!"

Yochanan or John the Apostle was the one who noted this in His Gospel, who also happened to be the one who wrote the book of Revelation.

HOWEVER, this wasn't so "symbolic" after all! For Yeshua` was INDEED haKeves Elohiym, the Lamb of God sacrificed on the cross for the forgiveness of sins! He was the Pesach Lamb, the Passover Lamb, giving His life on the day that the Passover lambs were slain on the day of preparation!

Yes, but Jesus was not a literal young sheep, Baaaaah.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

I don't have that malady. I just know that God wants us to believe the Word AS WRITTEN without all the "fluff!"

You may say, "I see the ocean", But you can only see the surface, we know that there is more to the ocean than just the surface. You must dive in to understand more. The deep is just as real as the surface.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

ONLY if it is SAID to be symbolic of a person! In the case of the Revelation 9, it is NOT said to be representative of any person, angelic or otherwise; it's a FALLING STAR or a SHOOTING STAR! It's too bad if that messes with your symbolism! It's not said to be symbolic of ANYTHING or ANYONE! It's a HUNK OF ROCK that falls to the earth!

Stars are not necessarily named specifically in every vision in the Revelation. But they are identified in parallel passages, Rev 12:1.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

NOT in this context! Symbolism is not permanently "locked in"; it doesn't always mean the same thing in multiple locations!

The "leaven of the Pharisees" is understood in Matthew 16:

Matthew 16:5-12 (KJV)

5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said unto them,

"Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, 

"It is because we have taken no bread."

8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them,

"O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?"

12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of "the leaven" OF BREAD, but of "THE DOCTRINE" of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

HOWEVER,

the Kingdom of Heaven is LIKENED unto leaven in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

In this passage of Scripture, Yeshua` is not saying the "leaven" was a bad thing at all! He was saying that the Kingdom will act like leaven: A small amount of the Kingdom within the kingdoms of the world will be like a small influence at first, but it will grow in influence until it affects the whole world!

So, it's WRONG to think of leaven as an evil doctrine in all cases! It all depends on how the symbolism is used within a particular context! The CONTEXT determines the usage of any symbols one might apply!

Evil doctrine or good doctrine, the leaven is symbolic of a doctrine.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

No, I say it's a translation error because the same mistake is not made in other passages of Scripture! You weren't paying attention: An inanimate object, like a shooting star, should not be given "personifications" simply because the word is a masculine word!

It may be endearing to hear, but one shouldn't personify a piece of machinery, like a car, calling it "Ol' Betsy!" and saying, "She's been good to me." That might be a technique applied to a piece of fiction, but the Word of God is NOT fiction!

You assume that the "heaven" that the star falls from is the atmosphere, but there is a heaven where God is.

You say that the "key" is coordinates, but a key is not coordinates. Rev 20:3 shows the the key fits a lock. But you wish to make the key, not a real key that fits a lock, into a location.

Changing the meaning of the key into symbolism for coordinates.

So the key would be symbolic of coordinates.

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

Ants have a queen, and we don't question that they are real ants, do we? How many ants are male? Did you know that it's only the winged drones who are male? All of the worker ants are female, and of course, the queen is female. Also, new queens, also winged, will fly and mate with a drone to produce new ant nests.

Bees, likewise, have queens, drones, and worker bees. Again, the queens and worker bees are female. Only the drones are males. Just the same, we don't think that bees aren't real bees, do we?

These locusts will have a king,

Except that Prov 30:27, says that locusts have no king. It doesn't say that about ants or bees, only locusts.

Since these locusts have a king, they cannot be real locusts.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

the only male of the species, all others are female.

An assumption, which is not in scriptures.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

They cannot reproduce without the contribution of the king upon their eggs. If the king dies, so will the species! And, indeed, the species dies off after 5 months.

It doesn't say that they die off, 5 months is the time of torture.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

There's no reason to think this way in this passage of Scripture! The victims cannot die! The poison of the stingers in their tails is not enough to kill the victims! Instead, they will lie there, wishing they could die, but because the toxin is that of an Egyptian scorpion, it PARALYZES the victim and they are not able to move or to speak!

Ok, so how long can a person live without food or water?

If they are paralyzed, they will die in a week without water.

It does not say that they are unable to move or speak, that is something that you have decided.

So if they are bit by the locusts, then I could cut thear heads off, or shoot them and they would not die? Could not die?

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

That's what the Scriptures say and imply:

Revelation 9:3-6 (KJV)

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Quit trying to say, "that means this" and "this means that," and just take the Word of God at its face value!

Dive in the ocean.

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:39 AM, Retrobyter said:

That's NOT what's being discussed here! Not everything is about what you think it should be about!

No, the gospel, Israel, the Revelation of Jesus, the kingdom, and the battle between good and evil is exactly what what is being discussed.

The Revelation is about Israel, Jerusalem, and the gospel kingdom using the spiritual weapons of war. Eph 6:12, The sword of the Word of God, the breastplate of righteousness, truth, peace, and the shield of faith.

These are the weapons that Christians fight the locust/false prophets with.

 

[abcdef]

On 3/20/2022 at 10:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, I have more questions than answers on these locusts. John’s detailed description of them must be symbolic (comparable) and not literal. As in each illustration, John qualifies it with, as it were; was as the; were as; as the. Analogies. 

The Bible was structured so every age could understand the meaning using symbolism. It was and will still be in future generations to compare it with—people, animals, and the natural fit that bill. The prophets and apostles themselves did not understand much of what they witnessed and were inspired to write. They had no concept of technology and the modern age; they were not auto writers but were inspired. 

Can you reason out some of the symbols used in Rev 9?

Compare them to the spiritual armor of Eph 6:10-17.

Compare the symbols to places in the OT where they are used.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 10:04 AM, Dennis1209 said:

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

Yes, a living substance.

It is on the spiritual level so that is not generally seen by the eye or detectable by people, most of the time.

It is the living spiritual material that makes up the essence of the spirits and souls.

What do you think that God is made of? What substance is it that He is made of? What is His essence? Can you explain His "body"?

Shalom, abcdef.

Just a warning; it takes a long post to answer a long post. (Unless you give me time to break it up into smaller bites.)

IF you believe in a "spiritual realm," then you must understand that it is NOT "made" of any "substance," which is limited to the physical realm. A "substance" is what "substantiates" a thing.

Furthermore, God is not "made of" anything! He is the CREATOR! ALL things were made by Him! Solomon's words are very telling:

2 Chronicles 6:12-21ff (KJV)

12 And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: 13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven, 14 And said,

"O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled itwith thine hand, as it is this day. 16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying,

"'There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.'

17 "Now then, O LORD God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 "But will God in very deed 'dwell with men on the earth'? behold, HEAVEN AND THE HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how much less this house which I have built! 19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: 20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place. 21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive. ..."

The words here in Hebrew are "shaamayim uwshmeey hashaamayim" and literally translated they are "skies and skies of the skies." The first word refers to this planet's atmosphere. The second and third words, a noun construct, means "and-skies of-the-skies." When one realizes that the "raqiya`," the "expanse," was named "shaamayim," the "skies," in Genesis 1:8, one may better understand that this is talking about the expanse of the expanse, to which we refer as "outer space" or more simply "space."

Thus, Shlomoh ("Solomon") is telling us that even "outer space" cannot contain YHWH God! And, that makes sense when you realize that God made it ALL! Every star, every galaxy, every quasar, every nebula, every dust cloud in space, God made them ALL! There is NOTHING that God has not made! And, God is OMNIPRESENT; that is, He is EVERYWHERE! Furthermore, God keeps everything "running." No matter how big we make our telescopes, and no matter how far into space we view the stars, looking for evidence of the "Big Bang," God is further still, and He has made EVERYTHING that is seen.

Colossians 1:3-20 (KJV)

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Father of our Master, Yeshua`, the Messiah of God), praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven (Greek: en tois ouranois = "in the skies"), whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated (transferred) us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (created being): 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 AND he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth (Greek: epi tees gees = "upon the earth/land", or things in heaven (Greek: en tois ouranois = "in the skies").

Thus, God is OUTSIDE of or BEYOND His Creation, and He is the Creator of it! He isn't "made" of anything, because all things were made by Him!

This both tells us that GOD is the Creator and that Person now known as Yeshua` (or "Jesus"), as the Word of God was WITH GOD, and all things were made BY Him and FOR Him.

Consequently, there's no such thing as "the living spiritual material that makes up the essence of the spirits and souls."

A "spirit" is a literal "wind" or by extension the "breath." It can therefore also apply to the "speech" that comes out of one's mouth on his or her "breath." And, this also might imply the "thoughts" and "feelings" behind that "speech."

A "soul" is the "air-breathing creature" that applies to both human beings and animals. Thus, both living human beings and living animals are "living souls." We don't "HAVE" souls; we "ARE" souls, as long as we are still breathing!

When we die and quit breathing, we "EXPIRE" we "BREATHE OUT" our last breath, and we no longer have a "breath"; we no longer have a "spirit." When we die and quit breathing, then we can no longer be called "souls."

These are all FUNDAMENTALS that must first be accepted PURELY on the basis of the Hebrew and Greek languages as they were applied by the authors and translators.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

There is a God, maybe you would agree. Jesus said that God is Spirit, Jn 4:24.

God existed before creation, is with us now, and will exist for all eternity.

What is God made of? Spiritual substance that cannot be revealed to people unless it is revealed to them.

Certainly there is a God! Yeshua` did indeed say that God is a Spirit. However, you're taking this to a place one should not go! God is not "made of" ANYTHING that was made!

John 1:1-5 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

You don't yet understand if you think there's such a thing as "spiritual substance!"

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

There is substance in the spiritual wind, breath, also, but not detectable by people.

To say "spiritual wind" is to be redundant. You're essentially saying "windy wind!" Wind may not be visible, but it is certainly detectable! We can feel it on our skin; we can detect it with anemometers, hygrometers, and barometers. We can watch what it does to leaves and trees, flags, clouds, and fog!

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

As when God "puffed" into Adam. The Substance behind that breath/wind was the living spiritual substance of God's Spirit entering into Adam. Psm 82:6, "Ye are gods", "children of the most High".

God giving a spirit/soul to His material creation.

This is PURE FICTION! It may be what you believe and what your theology states, but it is NOT what the Scriptures said! You've just added to the Scriptures your own thoughts and beliefs, and that is eisegesis, defined as "reading into the Scriptures what you want it to say!"

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

The human soul is more than just the 4 elements of creation, earth, water, fire(heat), and air.

These four things are NOT "elements!"

Earth (dirt; soil) is a mixture of SOLID matter consisting of several elements and compounds and smaller mixtures. 

Water is a compound of oxygen and hydrogen that may exist in any of the three normal states of matter - solid, liquid, and gas, but it is most abundantly found as the LIQUID that makes up most of the seas, lakes, rivers and ponds on the earth.

Air is also a mixture of several compounds and elements of gaseous matter, mostly composed of GASES such as nitrogen, and oxygen, but several other gaseous elements and compounds, such as carbon dioxide and helium, to name a few.

Fire is not an element at all! It is a process of rapid oxidation giving off heat and light, energy that may be useful for other processes.

Elements are substances that consist of single atoms, such as carbon (C), gold (Au), or lead (Pb).

Compounds are substances that consist of molecules that may consist of two or more atoms that are chemically bonded together by ionic connections, such as table salt (NaCl), water (H2O), and carbon dioxide (CO2).

The "human soul" is the "air-breathing creature" that God made by puffing air into the lungs of the human being and making him autonomous; that is, able to support himself by a breathing pulmonary system, a working circulatory system, and the ability to move and react with his environment with a working skeletal and musculatory system. We deduce by the Scriptures that IF the man had never sinned, he would have gone on living indefinitely.

However, when he failed to obey God and sinned, God introduced the curse into the otherwise perfect system, and systems began to fail at the molecular level. Man began to DIE. It took Adam about 930 years to cease to function altogether, die, and be buried in the ground, but he began dying the moment decay and death were introduced into the biological system of the man and the earth, the biosphere.

On 3/30/2022 at 6:19 PM, abcdef said:

He has a spirit, that was given to him at the time of creation.

Lk 10:27 shows that there is more to people than just a material body. There is also heart and mind. These were all given to Adam to make a complete soul.

You can say that when God puffed, He gave Adam the created air element, but without giving Adam a heart and mind also Jn 10:27, Adam could not meet the requirements to become a living soul.

You're reading into Luke 10:27 something that isn't there, again. 

Luke 10:25-27 (KJV)

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying,

"Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 He said unto him,

"What is written in the law? how readest thou?"

27 And he answering said,

"'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind' (Deuteronomy 6:5); and '(love) thy neighbour as thyself.' (Leviticus 19:18)"

28 And he said unto him,

"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

First of all, the "heart" in this verse is NOT the pump that moves blood throughout our bodies. This is the word "leeVaaV" in Hebrew, "kardios" in Greek, and "cor" in Latin. We use the Latin (with an "e", "core") to provide a word that means "the center," and it doesn't mean the "center of the body," but the "center of the thinking portion of the BRAIN" where concentration is found. Your "mind" is the thinking and feeling areas of your brain. All of your "soul" is all of your air-breathing being, involving determination, and this involves all of your strength, as well! One must love God with every fiber of one's being!

Coming from the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 6:5, we find,

HaDevariym ("Deuteronomy") 6:5 JPS

וְאָ֣הַבְתָּ֔ אֵ֖ת יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ בְּכָל־לְבָבְךָ֥ וּבְכָל־נַפְשְׁךָ֖ וּבְכָל־מְאֹדֶֽךָ׃

Transliterated, this becomes:

5 V'aahaVtaa eet YHWH Eloheykhaa bkhaal-lVaaVkhaa uwVkhaal-nafshkhaa uwVkhaal-m'odekhaa:

Translated word-for-word, we get:

5 And-thou-shalt-love (the next word is the direct object) YHWH thy-God in-all-thy-core/MIND/will and-in-all-thy-air-breathing-creature/LIFE and-in-all-thy-strength/force/ABUNDANCE:

Now, here's how it was translated into the Greek of Luke 10:27a:

Kata Lukas 10:27

Ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν “‘Ἀγαπήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχῇ σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ἰσχύϊ σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ διανοίᾳ σου,’ καὶ ‘Τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν.’”

Kata Lukas 10:27

27 Ho de apokritheis eipen, "'Agapeeseis Kurion ton Theon sou ex holees tees kardias sou kai en holee tee psuchee sou kai en holee tee ischui sou kai en holee tee dianoia sou,' kai 'Ton pleesion sou hoos seauton.'"

Translated word-for-word, we get:

27 The but answering-one said, "'Thou-shalt-love Lord the God of-thee/thy out of-all the heart/core of-thee/thy and in all the air-breather of-thee/thy and in all the strength/power/ability of-thee/thy and in all the mind/disposition/thought of-thee/thy,' and 'The neighbor of-thee/thy like thyself.'"

(I use the "thee," "thou," "thy," and "thine" as they were used in the KJV; that is, they represent the SINGULAR 2nd-person pronouns as opposed to the "ye," "you," "your," and "yours," which were used for the PLURAL 2nd-person pronouns.)

(I'm going to stop here tonight...)

 

[abcdef]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, abcdef.

Just a warning; it takes a long post to answer a long post. (Unless you give me time to break it up into smaller bites.)

Yes my brother, I know what you mean.