Who is Israel? And what is God's plan for the Jewish people?

[BibleGuy]

20 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Well I thought that was clear from the beginning. I have asked other posters to stick with what was put into effect by God at the time they existed. Not adding arguments which included Effects brought on through covenants much later on. God had a purpose in each one. The end result being A need for a new covenant which effected the disannulling of the carnal commands which were 430 years after Abraham. We needed that to effect a change in conditions.

Hi there!

Thought I'd jump into this chat (if that's ok!)

The New Covenant does not cancel ANY of the Torah of Moses.

Rather, it writes that very Torah upon our hearts (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:16) so that we will OBEY it (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).

The covenants overlap and coexist.

Blessings...

 

[Anne2]

9 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

Thought I'd jump into this chat (if that's ok!)

The New Covenant does not cancel ANY of the Torah of Moses.

Rather, it writes that very Torah upon our hearts (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:16) so that we will OBEY it (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).

The covenants overlap and coexist.

Blessings...

 

No it does not cancel any of it. It fulfills it.

Paul tell us in Galatians to HEAR THE TORAH To understand why they are bewitched and address that issue. And that Torah He which chooses, is to begin with Two covenants made with Abraham.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

24 minutes ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

No, it wasn’t clear to “me”at the beginning,Anne.

 

Were all learning, including you!.😉

 

I just seen this. My post concerning attempting to understand these things was not made to address this post. I am done with the false assumptions, and insults. There is no fellowship here. Good day. Mission accomplished for you. 

[BibleGuy]

12 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

No it does not cancel any of it. It fulfills it.

Paul tell us in Galatians to HEAR THE TORAH To understand why they are bewitched and address that issue. And that Torah He which chooses, is to begin with Two covenants made with Abraham.

FULFILLED does not mean cancelled or terminated.

Thus Paul applies that same Torah (Dt. 30:14) to you (Rom.10:8).

A husband can fulfill his duties as husband of his wife.  But they are still married tomorrow!  The marriage continues.  The Torah of Moses continues.

Paul (in Galatians) opposes TORAH WITHOUT FAITH.....

Paul does not oppose TORAH WITH FAITH.

After all, Paul upholds the New Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25) in which that same TORAH is written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:31-33;Heb. 8:8-10;10:16) so that we obey it (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).

Blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

13 minutes ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

I find this very interesting...will be studying more of this, 👍

Blessings in your search for truth!

 

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Just saw your edit there....

You asked: "What do you mean, we don’t know how we should live as  New Covenant participants?"

My response:  The New Covenant entails TORAH to be written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:31-33;Heb. 8:8-10;10:16) so that we OBEY it (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).

The majority of Christians seem to (wrongly) think various portions of the Torah of Moses are permanently canceled.

Sure, some portions are not presently observable.

But we will again obey 100% of all Torah when we return to inherit the land promised to us (Dt. 30:1-8).

Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled....it is yet future!

Blessings...

 

God does not accept blood sacrifice of animals any more.....that's like offering Him strange fire.  So much for those ordinances...they were nailed to the cross.  It is not what the Lord requires and commands now.  On the contrary now He counts that as an abomination....because it is an offense against the sacrifice and blood of the Messiah, refusing to accept it and/or treating His sacrifice as insufficient.  I truly fear for Israel restoring the Temple and trying to offer God the blood of animals now...it's like doubling down on their rejection of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ/Yeshua.  Cain's offering as compared to the offering of righteous Abel.  We need to serve God the way that HE asks, not the way WE might want or think.

Isa 66:3

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

And there will  be no more death in the new heavens/earth....hell and death itself will be  annihilated in the lake of fire...cast in there by the One who conquered death through His resurrection, so how can there be the death of animals......when the creatures themselves will be liberated from mortal flesh in the new heavens/earth.

[BibleGuy]

12 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

God does not accept blood sacrifice of animals any more.....that's like offering Him strange fire.  So much for those ordinances...they were nailed to the cross.  It is not what the Lord requires and commands now.  On the contrary now He counts that as an abomination....because it is an offense against the sacrifice and blood of the Messiah, refusing to accept it and/or treating His sacrifice as insufficient.  I truly fear for Israel restoring the Temple and trying to offer God the blood of animals now...it's like doubling down on their rejection of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ/Yeshua.  Cain's offering as compared to the offering of righteous Abel.  We need to serve God the way that HE asks, not the way WE might want or think.

Isa 66:3

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

And there will  be no more death in the new heavens/earth....hell and death itself will be  annihilated in the lake of fire...cast in there by the One who conquered death through His resurrection, so how can there be the death of animals......when the creatures themselves will be liberated from mortal flesh in the new heavens/earth.

Hi there!

I'd like to share my thoughts with you, if that's ok...

 

1. You said:  "God does not accept blood sacrifice of animals any more."

My response:  Jesus AFFIRMS that NO Torah is abolished (Mt. 5:19).  Thus, animal sacrifices are not cancelled/terminated....they're just not presently observable in our current diaspora.

2. Don't worry!  We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah, thus including sacrificial Torah (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec. 14;Eze. 40-46; Jer. 33;Is. 66;Mal. 3).  Just need to wait until we can observe that portion of Torah properly again.

3. 1st-century disciples rightly continued as animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7).

4. Paul explicitly affirmed the legitimacy of sacrificial activity (Ac. 21) for the purpose of proving he walked in obedience to the Torah (thus including animal sacrifices), just as  thousands of other believers did too.

5. Jesus requires a proper heart when partaking in sacrificial activity (Mt. 5:24).

6. "Strange fire" is AGAINST Torah.  Animal sacrifices are REQUIRED by Torah.  Don't confuse the two.

7. You said: "So much for those ordinances...they were nailed to the cross."

My response: Rather, the "χειρόγραφον" is cancelled (Col. 2:14), not the Torah.  After all, the Torah is not a certificate of debt!

8. "It is not what the Lord requires and commands now."

Oops!  The Lord requires ALL His commands (Mt. 28:19-20)....so that includes Mt. 5:19-20.

9. "because it is an offense against the sacrifice and blood of the Messiah"

Rather, Torah WITHOUT FAITH is an offense.  Jesus REQUIRES even the least of Torah (Mt. 5:19).  Just make sure you have faith....or else your sacrifices and other Torah is useless....

10. Torah is explicitly in the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:16).  Why would you oppose it?  Surely you don't oppose the New Covenant???

11. "refusing to accept it and/or treating His sacrifice as insufficient. "

Who said I refuse to accept Christ's atoning sacrifice?  That's not my position.

Who said I treat His sacrifice as insufficient?  That's not my position.

Try to understand me, before you falsely accuse my Biblical position. Thanks.

12. "I truly fear for Israel restoring the Temple and trying to offer God the blood of animals now"

Why? The prophets assure us that we should partake in it!  (Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-46;Jer.33;Is.66;Mal.3;Zec.14).  Don't be afraid of God's promises!

13. "it's like doubling down on their rejection of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ/Yeshua"

The ISRAEL OF GOD would not do that.  Don't worry.

Now, the modern geopolitical-Jewish-nation-state might try to do sacrifices in rejection of Christ....and of course THAT would be bad.

But God-ordained restoration of sacrifices is not bad....it's REQUIRED in Scripture!

14. "We need to serve God the way that HE asks, not the way WE might want or think."

You mean the GOD who tells us to sacrifice animals in accordance with Levitical/priestly Torah even in the future? (Is. 66;Dt. 30:1-8;Jer.33)

Ok....sounds good!  We can (and will) do that!

15.  You cite Isaiah 66?  Oops!  Keep reading!  Is. 66:21 says Priests and Levites will be restored....and guess what they do?  They sacrifice animals as required by God!  This is a FUTURE prophecy, by the way!

Sure, BAD sacrifices (Is.66:3) are bad because they are performed by people who do NOT obey God (Is.66:4). 

Does that prove that ALL sacrifices are bad?

Of course not!

16. Paul tells you to sing Psalms (Eph. 5:19;Col.3:16).

Guess what the Psalms affirm is GOOD?  ANIMAL SACRIFICES! (Ps.51:19).

So let's SING about the goodness of forthcoming animal sacrifices, just as Paul requires.

17. Sacrifices point us to the Messiah (Rom.10:4)....Who points us to the Torah (Mt. 4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34).

After all, Jesus said you will have eternal life if you obey Torah (Lk.10:25-28).

I think I'll stick with Jesus' words....not your opposition to Jesus' words.

 

Can you address these 17 objections to your position?

Thanks...

 

[George]

@BibleGuy  Would you participate in this thread as well ... it sounds like we are on the same page.

 

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

No, it wasn’t clear to “me”at the beginning,Anne.

 

Were all learning, including you!.😉

 

 

2 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

All I said was,...it wasn’t clear to “ ME” Anne, at the beginning,,I then went onto say ,we are all learning, it takes me time to twig on,God gets me there in the end, I then said even you are learning and you took umbrage and called it insulting, good grief, I’m actually shocked that you said I was on a mission,😮😮

 

A quote from my very first contribution concerning "who Is Israel"

I said in that post. "just my view of what the whole of scripture teaches".

Just like everyone else I was stating Just my opinions. as just my views. Nothing more, nothing less.

So I figured such a statement, would suffice to offset any comments such as the above, to insinuate I did not consider myself learning. If not, surely somewhere in the conversation (a later post) I made an even more clarifying statement, which here I am paraphrasing as best I recollect . I said, Just testing my thoughts on this.

Dispute arose

  A dispute arose between two other posters. One had already given an identification long before I included mine. Which agreement with the idea of "firstborn" in one instance, seemed contradictory to what he had already said, was someone else.

So I continued with this aside argument, asking one poster to please stay within the two covenants made with Abraham which were the only covenants in operation at the time. This was asked to narrow the dispute between those two posters, as well as the my own.

 

[BibleGuy]

6 minutes ago, George said:

@BibleGuy  Would you participate in this thread as well ... it sounds like we are on the same page.

 

Sure!  But I'm also sure that you and others here have MUCH to teach me!
I feel like I'm just scratching the surface.....

Would be glad to learn and share together.

Blessings.......