WOMEN PASTORS

[exrockstar]

where in 1 tim 3 are you finding anything that contradicts what you call my "loophole"?

and if it's such a loophole, then why did God make exceptions for certain women in the Bible?

1 tim 3 writes out the qualifications of a bishop which would be pastor; aka overseer.

have you read it?

the great thing about Christian liberty is that you can do whatever you like.

i can make a church with the head pastor being called "President of the U.S."

all my members can call him "Mr. President."

It has the liberty to exist.

But would he really be a President of the U.S.? of coarse not.

title are fo us to recognize who is who and who does what.

Now through God's word.....it doesn't fly that easily.

by all means read 1 Tim 3.

and if it's such a loophole, then why did God make exceptions for certain women in the Bible?

I never said God never used females in the bible.

Are you talking about female prophets?

roles of prophets versus roles of OT priests and NT pastors are different.

[jackie d]

Jackie...the original post if you go back to the first page...look at the date. The original question was posted in the year of 2005. I think that is what you are questioning about what do you mean ,patricia.

I do not believe in the Spirit of God making a choice of gender when it comes to His gifts and offices.

I personally do not have a pastors heart, yet I can pastor if need be for a short time. If God calles be to pastor a church, ( He has'n in all my years) He will have to give me a new heart.

I know where God has positioned me Spiritually in His Kingdom. Thats I hope is more clearer yet I have been ordained as such it is not my call.

oh...well I was not responding to the original post but to the ones dated the same day I posted. That is why I was confused.

blessings

[HAZARD]

There are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Scripture (1 Cor. 12:4-11). If one is filled with the holy spirit one would have.

1 The gift of the word of wisdom

2 The gift of the word of knowledge

3 The gift of faith

4 The gift of healing

5 The gift of working of miracles

6 The gift of prophecy

7 The Gift of discerning of spirits

8 The gift od divers kinds of tongues or languages

9 The gift of interpretation of tongues or languages

Who can have all of the above gifts? Does Scripture teach men only?

Scripture teaches that every believer, that means MALE or FEMALE may have one or all of the above gifts as they covet them and seeks God for the anointing of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:8-31). That is every member of the body of Christ, male or female!

Now, what is the purpose of these gifts?

The purpose of these gifts is to enable all believers to do the works of CHRIST and to carry on the work that He began both to do AND TO TEACH (READ Acts 1:1-2, 12-15; 1 Cor 1:7; Rom. 12:3-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-31; 14:1-40; Heb. 2:3-4). "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; AND GREATER WORKS than these shall he do for I go to my Father (John 14:12).

God has set some in the Church, first apostles,secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miricals, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues . . . But covet earnestly the best gifts; and yet unto you a more excellent way . . . . Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts" (1 Cor. 12:28-30; 14:1).

Not one mention of gender in asking for and recieving any of the above gifts, or being limited in any of the works any believer can do, in fact Jesus says even better works than these, works which He did? we both, male and female can do all the works Jesus did and more than He did, and that includes teaching, for He was the greatest teacher of all, if we so covet the gifts and recieve them. Teaching has nothing to do with having authority over men. Teaching is teaching.

Teaching is not userping authority from man. Jesus Himself said, covet earnestly the gifts of the spirit and one will be able to do more than He had done. He never said, men only!

[Guest LadyC]

where in 1 tim 3 are you finding anything that contradicts what you call my "loophole"?

and if it's such a loophole, then why did God make exceptions for certain women in the Bible?

1 tim 3 writes out the qualifications of a bishop which would be pastor; aka overseer.

have you read it?

the great thing about Christian liberty is that you can do whatever you like.

i can make a church with the head pastor being called "President of the U.S."

all my members can call him "Mr. President."

It has the liberty to exist.

But would he really be a President of the U.S.? of coarse not.

title are fo us to recognize who is who and who does what.

Now through God's word.....it doesn't fly that easily.

by all means read 1 Tim 3.

and if it's such a loophole, then why did God make exceptions for certain women in the Bible?

I never said God never used females in the bible.

Are you talking about female prophets?

roles of prophets versus roles of OT priests and NT pastors are different.

yes, i have read chapter three, and did so prior to posting what i posted. which part are you referring to? that a bishop should have only one wife? that a bishop should not be given to drunkenness? that he should know how to manage his own house? that he should not be full of pride?

yes, i was referring to deborah, the female prophet, the female judge, the female worship leader, oh wait, scratch that, that was miriam. point is, deborah was called fill the duties that were reserved only for men. called by God. and for a time, she led israel. she exercised authority over even the men, even in battle, and she rebuked disobedience.

all under God's authority. but she did not hold office.

you can agree or disagree, that's up to you. it's unlikely that either of us will change each other's position, but we should at least respect each other's position. i respect yours.

[Ddavid from NC]

Is it possible to interpret the passage in the Corinthian letter commanding silence to the women causing problems in the Corinthian church? This is part of the exegetical background of this passage. The idea of women not exercising authority over men is consistent with Pauline thought. When a woman teaches or preaches the authority is the Word, but in the pastor role she is definitely exercising authority.

[Guest LadyC]

back to 1 timothy 2.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

again.... nothing in this contradicts my position. the woman is to be in submission. a woman is not to have the authority over a man.

a woman is not to teach a man. now therein lies the crux of what i said regarding this could be debated over who she is allowed to teach, preach, or deliver a sermon to. and again, if she is delivering a sermon in lieu of the male pastor's absence, and yet the sermon has been authorized by the male pastor, who is actually in authority over the sermon being delivered? NOT the female pastor.

Hello LadyC,

I have heard this before where people think this scripture is saying that women cannot teach and man and that is wrong. It is not saying the cannot teach a man. It is saying that they cannot usurp the authority of a man. Meaning that women cannot take the same offices that were delegated to man by God in the forms of being pulpit preachers, elders, deacons, or bishops.

I have been around the church for many years and I take instruction, edification, and even rebuking from women teachers as well as preachers. It is just that the woman was never supposed to be in the offices that were given for the man to fulfill.

It is like in the OT the priests could only be male Levites. Now imagine if under the OT you have a female priest that was from the tribe of Reuben. That would never work because scripture gave the duties to the male Levites, but that did not stop female Prophets.

The same is in the NT. Only the men can hold the offices set forth by God, but that does not stop females from having gifts, teaching, sharing, spreading the gospel, etc.

you and i are in agreement cc... that's why i said the debate could focus on who a woman can teach. that seems to be the underlying current of the debate. i see nowhere in scripture that says a woman shall never teach a man, but like you, i see plenty of emphasis on a woman not usurping authority. the Bible has women doing male-only roles, but not ever holding an official office of that capacity.

[Guest LadyC]

Hello LadyC,

You are correct in everything you are saying and it is also true that it was give to Deborah for a time. A time when there were no men to fill that gap, but we cannot use this instance to justify women to be pulpit preachers under the NT when there are plenty of men.

Look at it this way. There were female prophets, but there were no female priests. Today there can be female teachers, but there can be no female preachers, elders, bishops, or deacons.

i think i've pretty much said that, and even used the example of a woman delivering a sermon, as authorized by her senior (male) pastor, in lieu of his absence.

i've never stated i'm in agrement with a woman holding office as the senior pastor of a church.... although i can cite one example of a woman who is a senior pastor, and was for ten years, because it was an unpaid position and her husband (also an ordained minister but not serving in that capacity) could not support the family without an income, so he worked as an executive in another field. the wife, as senior pastor, still was subject to the authority of the male counsel, or elders, deacons, whatever you call them, i get those kinds of terminology hopelessly confused. whether God looks on her with favor or not is between Him and her. i'm not particularly crazy about her, but her ministry has been blessed, and i know of many very members of her church who are (or at least were, in the 70's and 80's) names that every christian household was very familiar with.

one of my best friends (a female, and twice-widowed) is delivering the sermon at our church in two weeks, under the authority of our pastor, because he will be out of town. and you can bet he will scrutinize her sermon with a fine tooth come before he leaves her in charge.

is she being disobedient to God's word by delivering the sermon? nothing in scripture that i have read leads me to believe that she is out of God's will.

and ps, i'm editing this to add when my pastor contacted me to have it put on our website calendar, he said to announce that she would be "speaking" at the morning services.

[Ddavid from NC]

Cardcaptor;

The study notes in the MaCarthur study Bible says;

"The Grk word for "permit" is used in the NT to refer to allowing someone to do what he desires. Paul may be addressing a real situation in which several women in Ephesus desired to be public preachers. Paul used a verbal form of the Grk word that indicates a condition or process and is better translated "to be a teacher". This wa an important, oficial function in the church (see Acts 13:1, 1 Cor 12:28, Ephesians 4:11). Thus Paul is is forbidding women from filling the office and role of the pastor or teacher. he is not prohibiting them from teaching in other appropriate conditions and circumstances. (Acts 18:26, Titus 2:3-4)"

Do you agree with this?

[exrockstar]

yes, i have read chapter three, and did so prior to posting what i posted. which part are you referring to? that a bishop should have only one wife? that a bishop should not be given to drunkenness? that he should know how to manage his own house? that he should not be full of pride?

yes, i was referring to deborah, the female prophet, the female judge, the female worship leader, oh wait, scratch that, that was miriam. point is, deborah was called fill the duties that were reserved only for men. called by God. and for a time, she led israel. she exercised authority over even the men, even in battle, and she rebuked disobedience.

all under God's authority. but she did not hold office.

you can agree or disagree, that's up to you. it's unlikely that either of us will change each other's position, but we should at least respect each other's position. i respect yours.

where are you getting that Deborah was a "female worship leader?"

Judges were military heroes. She was a judge.

I havent read that she was a high priest of some sort?

tactical war is different than spiritual leader.

however pastoral guidlines are in black and white.

[Guest LadyC]

i said:

the female worship leader, oh wait, scratch that, that was miriam.

i guess you didnt read very carefully.

she was a judge and a prophetess. i did not say she was a high priest. i said she fulfilled roles that were reserved strictly for males, and fulfilled them by God's authority, but did not hold office in that capacity.

please read carefully when i post. context is important.