WOMEN PASTORS

[Trust & Obey]

just a few final questions from this end....

1st,

what was Mary told to do when she found the tomb empty????

2nd,

who was it that pheobe taught?

3.

who was Deborah over if she was not over men?

4.  if women are not to teach, or speak, or talk, or preach, then what are they doing in the choir, in the praise teams, in the mission fields in the class rooms, nursary and other places, to include secretary.

mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

4. if women are not to teach, or speak, or talk, or preach, then what are they doing in the choir, in the praise teams, in the mission fields in the class rooms, nursary and other places, to include secretary.

Mike, Scripture does not say a woman should not care for children in the nursery, or work on a mission field doing any number of jobs, or even "not to teach, speak, talk" etc. Scripture addresses the worship service and the woman's place in it, and teaching men. Your post implies some believe Scripture to say women can not to anything, anywhere, period. Not the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you didnt answer the questions.....

Mary was told to do what????? "go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father , and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

"Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. "

she was the first one to "preach the Gosple " ( def: Gosple = good news )

so if women are not to preach, then why was she told to go do so? as with the woman at the well, why was she told to go spread the news?

your turn on the next one.....

mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Delieving a message for someone and being a teacher in authority over men are two different things.

[irishcowboy]

what is a preacher? isnt a preacher one that delivers a message for some one?

what is a witness of the Good News, spreading the Good News ( Good News is the same as Gospel ).

didn't she "preach" the "Gospel" of Jesus resurrected?

by whos athority did she do this? and who was she in authority over, if she was just following instructions?

mike

[Work in Progress]

you didnt answer the questions.....

Mary was told to do what????? "go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father , and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

"Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. "

she was the first one to "preach the Gosple " ( def: Gosple = good news )

so if women are not to preach, then why was she told to go do so? as with the woman at the well, why was she told to go spread the news?

your turn on the next one.....

Mike, it's apples and oranges. Not to mention a big stretch to take someone who witnesses Christ and call them a "Preacher". Everyone knows what we are talking about here - a leader of a flock, regularly presenting and expounding on the Word of God, making decisions, being in authority. Those are all male duties, as God as laid forth His order. I witnessed today. That doesn't make me a Preacher. It just makes me a disciple of Christ.

With this topic, I never can understand why some take the fact that God has set a certain order and said "no" to some things, as an insult. Women have a wonderful and beautiful ministry. Just a different one. One men can not do. Where is the shame in that?

[Guest RJD Servant]

Hi

I would like to say you have seen the scriptures so I will not place them before you.

I would like to say when we change the choice of God for the disobedience of man because we want to find a loop hole to hold to our loose manner of choice we desire. Wrong will become of it.

Women are uses in many capacity in the ministry but God has designed that Men would lead and Home, Church, Teach, Lead.

Women change the challenge that God had in mind for the Church and the people in it.

God is not legalistiacal.

He is God and he laid down the Truth along time ago for us to abide by.

Women have been missionaries and won nations and they have been over men.

Women teach Women, and Children, College, etc...

But Women were not to Lead the Church, Preach and be ruler over Men.

Women can have opinions and comments for we are insightful not that men are not. We have diffrence of in put.

The women out in the ministry today are domineering and commanding, demeaning, dirogitory, Ruling, Directing, over man and women and the world around them.

They are just a ministry unto themselves. Jezebiles that distroy a Nation, distroy a Church, or our Priests, Pastors, Teachers, that God has called with a order in life and how God desired it to be.

Of course those women have to change the Bible to be able to do what they desire to do of there own accord. They take away the word and make it a lie to be what they think God desires them to be. Men Under God and him leading and Women to be Under Men.

Most doctrines spoken by women today are FALSE as I have tested there lives with the word of God and Lies and False doctrine are produced by them.

Not one has truth as they are to be taught by there HUSBANDS and be submitted under the truth that the head of them should be teaching them.

When you do not listen and adhere to the Plans of God in the manner he intended then you will loose the truth as God knows it was to be.

There are women who are in direct disobedience to Gods word so that in its self will place them in sin against God and man and those around them and all they do or say will not change the Lies and disobedience.

RJD Sevant Write me!

[EricH]

When Paul said for Deacons to be men, he should have consulted his Bible where Paul says that in Christ there is neither male or female.  You would have also have thought Jesus would have known this about himself when he was selecting apostles.  I wonder of the same-sex marriage people have found the "neither male or female" verse yet?  Does this mean when a woman becomes a Christian that she can no longer have children, 'cause that would be a female thing.

On the other hand, maybe "neither male or famale" means something else.

I think Paul is setting down some good rules.  But, they're only rules.  Sometimes women innocently fall into these roles, and I know of no sin they've committed.  Take the example of the husband and wife missionaries, where the woman is invovled to help her husband, and the husband dies but the wife continues.  What is her sin?

What is a sin, at the very least hubris, is when these rules are tossed out.  If a woman defended her leadership role by saying that the Bible was written in a paternal age by misogynistic men, you know to find the exit, run, don't walk, don't look back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually Paul wrote the passage that says there is neither male or female. Read the context of that passage. He is not talking about roles in terms of what each are allowed to do in thec church. He was talking about thier status in terms of being saved. men and women are saved in identical ways and are equal in importance and diginity in God's eyes. His image resides in both equally.

But other passages describe their roles within the body of Christ

[Ovedya]

When Paul said for Deacons to be men, he should have consulted his Bible where Paul says that in Christ there is neither male or female.

[Guest JAR61]

Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

Here is exactly why Scripture is perverted and there are those who teach lies for the truth:

1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods which God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

1Ti 4:4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.

1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified through the Word of God and prayer.

1Ti 4:6 Having suggested these things to the brothers, you shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the Words of Faith and by the good doctrine which you have followed.

1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old-womanish tales, and exercise yourself to godliness.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the present life, and of that which is to come.

1Ti 4:9 Faithful is the Word, and worthy of all acceptance.

1Ti 4:10 For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the preserver of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.

1Ti 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1Ti 4:13 Until I come, attend to reading, to exhortation, to teaching.

1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift in you, which was given you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the body of elders.

1Ti 4:15 Meditate on these things; be in these things in order that your improvement may appear to all.

1Ti 4:16 Hold on to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this you shall both save yourself and those

2Ti 3:1 Know this also, that in the last days grievous times will be at hand.

2Ti 3:2 For men will be self-lovers, money-lovers, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, unyielding, false accusers, without self-control, savage, despisers of good,

2Ti 3:4 traitors, reckless, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Ti 3:5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power of it; even turn away from these.

2Ti 3:6 For of these are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women loaded with sins, led away with different kinds of lusts,

2Ti 3:7 ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 3:8 But as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so these also resist the truth, men of corrupt mind, reprobate concerning the faith.

2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further. For their foolishness shall be plain to all, as theirs also became.

2Ti 3:10 But you have fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long-suffering, love, patience,

2Ti 3:11 persecutions, afflictions, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra. What persecutions I endured! But the Lord delivered me out of all.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers will go forward to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.

[Guest JAR61]

Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

Here is exactly why Scripture is perverted and there are those who teach lies for the truth:

1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods which God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

1Ti 4:4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.

1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified through the Word of God and prayer.

1Ti 4:6 Having suggested these things to the brothers, you shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the Words of Faith and by the good doctrine which you have followed.

1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old-womanish tales, and exercise yourself to godliness.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the present life, and of that which is to come.

1Ti 4:9 Faithful is the Word, and worthy of all acceptance.

1Ti 4:10 For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the preserver of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.

1Ti 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1Ti 4:13 Until I come, attend to reading, to exhortation, to teaching.

1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift in you, which was given you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the body of elders.

1Ti 4:15 Meditate on these things; be in these things in order that your improvement may appear to all.

1Ti 4:16 Hold on to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this you shall both save yourself and those

2Ti 3:1 Know this also, that in the last days grievous times will be at hand.

2Ti 3:2 For men will be self-lovers, money-lovers, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, unyielding, false accusers, without self-control, savage, despisers of good,

2Ti 3:4 traitors, reckless, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Ti 3:5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power of it; even turn away from these.

2Ti 3:6 For of these are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women loaded with sins, led away with different kinds of lusts,

2Ti 3:7 ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 3:8 But as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so these also resist the truth, men of corrupt mind, reprobate concerning the faith.

2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further. For their foolishness shall be plain to all, as theirs also became.

2Ti 3:10 But you have fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long-suffering, love, patience,

2Ti 3:11 persecutions, afflictions, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra. What persecutions I endured! But the Lord delivered me out of all.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers will go forward to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.

[apothanein kerdos]

Three "minor" points.

People make two arguments concerning the passage in Timothy:

1) That Paul was addressing a cultural issue and that women were lower in his culture, thus his rule.

2) Paul wrote that in Christ we are all equal.

THe problem with this line of thought is that it defeats itself and proves itself wrong. If we buy that Paul was merely pleasing the patriarchial society then he would not have written what he did in Galatians, stating that men and women are equal in Christ. In essence, the position itself is defeated by its own logic. Thus, my three points as the alternative:

1) We are equal in Christ but this does not seperate the fact that we each have different callings in life. Equal does not mean we all do, or can do, the same thing. This might be on the individual level or on the gender level. Such as, God has called certain women to be mothers, which is an honorable calling. Raising and caretaking over a human being and dedicating one's life to service of this human being is extremely valuable. Thing is, this is a calling solely for women as it is quite difficult for men to have maternal instincts. This is not to say all women are to be homemakers birthing babies and cooking us dinner. I am saying some women might be called to that whilst others are called to be a CEO of a company. Either way, the fact remains, we each have different callings and certain aspects of our gender can prohibit us from the calling of another gender. Equal in Christ means that we each come to the cross as equal and none of us are blessed inherently more than the other. Grace is the same for all and the calling of Christ is the same for all.

2) Paul is discussing a calling issue in 1 Timothy when saying women are not to be in authority over men within a church setting. Paul is stating that, because of the fall, men have a calling to leadership concerning "spiritual" matters. Thus the pastorate (the job as the shepherd of the church) is something that fulfills a man's calling and not a woman's. This is why Paul limited the job of shepherd (authority) and teaching with authority (this is what the Greek means) to men. This is not to say women cannot share the Gospel or even preach from the pulpit a Gospel message, this is different than authority. However, because of the fall, men and women must hold to this different calling.

3) This does not place men above women simply because men are calling to the pastorate. If we hold to this view then we become quasi-Gnostic at worst and a misplaced metaphysical dualist at best. How so? By asserting only men being in the pastorate makes them "higher" we place a higher importance on the pastorate. We state that anyone who is in the pastorate is somehow better than anyone else and more spiritual. Fact is, the pastorate is merely another vocational calling and holds no significance over someone who collects trash for a living. Thus if men are solely called to the pastorate it doesn't make them more important or higher, it just means they have a different role to fulfill. If my friend is called to be a pastor and I am not, does this mean him and I are unequal? Of course not. THen the logical question must be asked, why does it make women unequal?

The entire issue requires a massive paradigm shift by people on both sides, specifically dealing with the issue of "equal" and "authority".

[Fiosh]

It might benefit this discussion to first look up the subject using Worthy's search feature. This issue has been extensively discussed in other threads.

Sometimes it's good to get a fresh perspective from new voices.

JMHO

F