Daniel 9:26, 27 explained through New Test verses? YES? or no

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

This I have no idea how that came to be.  I can tell you, in the many times I have read those chapters, never once did 'Rome' come to my mind.  I just went and read them again and STILL, no Rome. 

What 'mortal' wound did Rome suffer that was healed followed by an image being set up that had to be worshipped and what 'mark' did everyone  take to buy and sell?  
 

 

 

DeighAnn, here in 7:11 you will find the would of the 4th beast -

 

11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

This represents the fall of pagan Rome to be replaced by papal Rome.

Charlie

[Eternally Gratefull]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

DeighAnn, I hope you do not mind if I chime in here and mention a few things that you might find interesting.  Below you will recognize the verses found in 9:25 - 26. As you are well aware, these two verses along with verse 27 must be the most complicated and enigmatic verses in the  entire Scriptures - they not only are difficult, confusing but also (in my opinion) misinterpreted by more Christians than not... I would hazard a guess that perhaps 90% of Christians do not believe this speaks of the Messiah (Jesus)  at His first coming but it speaks of end time events AND the "he" in 9:27 is NOT "He" but a "he" or the future coming of some mythical anti-Christ boogeyman. And I do believe that of these 90 %'s, there is no changing their minds since this exact interpretation was CREATED by the Jesuits in the late 1500's as a counter-reformation measure to "get the bullseye of the papacy being the "little horn"(which he is), off of their back. Throughout the centuries and after teaching this interpretation to each successive Catholic generation, this now seems like "gospel" to them. This is the only thing these generations have been taught for almost 500 years. And, unfortunately, most of the Christian denominations (non-Catholic) have accepted this as well over the past same years.

Ok, enough history.... what about your comment regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel and the Messiah.  Here is what you said in your last post:

"I believe Christ was cut off AFTER the 69th yet before the 70th.  I say that because it doesn't say and IN THE 70TH WEEK but is specific in AFTER the 69th." 

 

25“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

 I been reading many posts recently that are similar to yours where they contend … essentially, the 70th week of Daniel is still in the future, and  / or the Messiah will be "cut off" AFTER THE 69TH WEEK. If I understand their theory, the ONLY way this can work is if the Messiah is indeed "cut off" after the 69th week but He would have to be "cut off" in the future of the last week of Daniel - still yet to come. Meaning, if He WAS "cut off" AFTER the 69th week (which He was), AND, it DOES apply to the Messiah, then what WEEK would He have been crucified in?  Their is ONLY one way this theory can meet BOTH conditions: If the "he" in 9:27 is the Messiah, then HE had to be "cut off" AFTER THE 69TH WEEK OR INTO THE 70TH WEEK. If "he" in 9:27 is NOT the Messiah, then all of these verses MUST speak about someone else and it MUST be thrown into the far future as an "end time" event (and this is exactly what the RCC has taught for almost 500 years).

Now, above is the two verses that address this "he" or "HE" depending on one's interpretation. For me, there can only be one interpretation and which is why God had Daniel write these verses in such a way:

In red above, there are TWO specific verses that are written to ensure we do not misinterpret who the "HE" is (God has given us TWO conditions to be met which can only be satisfied by His coming (Messiah):

Condition or Constraint #1: in verse 25 Daniel tells us:

Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

So we do not want to skip over this even though all of us must have read this a 1000 times - the Messiah will arrive AFTER 7 and 62 weeks (ARRIVE AFTER THE 69th week).

 

Condition or Constraint #2: in verse 26 Daniel tells us:

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off,

 

Okay, we know that in condition #1 the Messiah will arrive - this is after the last day of the 69th week. 

Condition #2 tells us He will be "cut off" AFTER THE 62 WEEKS. Because the first 7 weeks of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy came first (before the start of  the 62 week section), it was obviously completed and done. Meaning AT THE END OF THE 62 WEEK section (or saying the same thing - at the end of the 69th week) the Messiah will be "cut off".

God is telling us in two separate and distinct ways (verses) WHEN THE MESSIAH WILL ARRIVE (verse 25 -end of the 69th week which of course is the beginning of the 70th week), AND He is also telling us WHEN HE WILL BE CRUCIFIED (verse 26 - after the end of the 62nd weeks of years. Again, this also means the first 7 weeks have also been done away or completed).

God is giving us His arrival and His death to ensure we understand the "he" is "He", and these and the other verses in chapter 9 can only be speaking of the coming / death of the Messiah.

Charlie

Charlie,

this is a little confusing. so if I may

Your claiming the "he" in verse 27, who will confirm some covenant with many for 7 and also himself commit the abomination which causes desolation is Jesus?

 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Eternally Gratefull said:

I do like Johns words in rev 17 when he speaks of the 7 kings,,,

7 kings, 5 have fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, media-persia, Greece. One is (rome) and one is yet to come (Rome 2 or iron and clay)

...mix with the seed of men.  Which one is that? 

Is the 'short season' before being bound 1000 years or after? 

Isn't it the hour of temptation before and the short season after and goes into perdition? 


BUT maybe those 7 are Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome, Turks, DURING REVELATION Beast w/10 heads, Lords Day, Satan released short season.

 

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

'one is' Satans kingdom 'the beast', who will be bound 1000 years, and released for a short time.  

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Doesn't that fit better?

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Eternally Gratefull said:

Charlie,

this is a little confusing. so if I may

Your claiming the "he" in verse 27, who will confirm some covenant with many for 7 and also himself commit the abomination which causes desolation is Jesus?

 

 

 

 

If you do not mind, and I have a terrific reason for NOT addressing your second concern (please forgive me since it would cause just too much confusion), but regarding your first concern, the answer is unequivocally YES. The Messiah will arrive at the beginning of the 70th week (last week of Daniel's 70th week) and fulfill all of the requirements His Father had given Him to complete (6 requirements in 9:24). This is NOT a 7 year COVENANT.... Jesus will CONFIRM THE Jeremiah 31 COVENANT  in the last 7  years of Daniel's 70 weeks. 

 

Charlie 

[DeighAnn]

21 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 I been reading many posts recently that are similar to yours where they contend … essentially, the 70th week of Daniel is still in the future, and  / or the Messiah will be "cut off" AFTER THE 69TH WEEK.

Messiah WAS CUT OFF.  He lived DURING the 69th week but was crucified AFTER that week had ended.  Those the 69th week ended, the 70th didn't begin.  IF the 70th week would have begun then, Christ would have been cut off in the 70th and then 3 1/2 years later the temple would have had to have been destroyed for the 'sacrifice and oblation' (AS everyone else sees it but me) to cease and 3 1/2 years after that Jesus returned, right?

If I seem totally confused it is because I don't understand how Christ is crucified/cut off and then later 'the sacrifice and oblation being cut off mid week is Christ being crucified again.  

[Charlie744]

9 minutes ago, Eternally Gratefull said:

Charlie,

this is a little confusing. so if I may

Your claiming the "he" in verse 27, who will confirm some covenant with many for 7 and also himself commit the abomination which causes desolation is Jesus?

 

 

 

 

Here is another way of trying to say the same thing re: the 69th and the 70th week and where the Messiah not only ARRIVES BUT IS CRUCIFIED AFTER TH 69TH WEEK:

Saying a little differently- I hope this might help;

Say John started pitching in the first inning and stayed in for 3 innings.

Then Joe came in to pitch for 4 innings (so far a total of 7 innings have been completed).

Then Mike comes in to pitch the last two innings AND the announcer tells the fans over the PA system that Mike will come in and replace Joe AFTER 4 innings of pitching. Well, that is true but it was / is also AFTER both John and Joe have pitched 7 innings collectively. But the announcer just tells the fans Mike came in to replace Joe AFTER 4 innings.
 

Same with the Messiah- He will be cut off AFTER the 62 weeks have ended (similar to the 4 innings pitched by Joe which really is at the end of the 7th inning. Mike will begin the start of the 8th inning. The Messiah will start His ministry at the beginning of the 70th week. But He will be cut off within 3.5 years if the total 7-year period. 

Charlie

[Charlie744]

Just now, DeighAnn said:

Messiah WAS CUT OFF.  He lived DURING the 69th week but was crucified AFTER that week had ended.  Those the 69th week ended, the 70th didn't begin.  IF the 70th week would have begun then, Christ would have been cut off in the 70th and then 3 1/2 years later the temple would have had to have been destroyed for the 'sacrifice and oblation' (AS everyone else sees it but me) to cease and 3 1/2 years after that Jesus returned, right?

If I seem totally confused it is because I don't understand how Christ is crucified/cut off and then later 'the sacrifice and oblation being cut off mid week is Christ being crucified again.  

Thanks DeighAnn. The Messiah would arrive AFTER THE 69TH WEEK ENDED. Which means He arrived on the exact first day of the 70th week (baptized in the Jordan), and this began His ministry on earth. But He would indeed be crucified 3.5 years AFTER HE BEGAN HIS MINISTRY OR "IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK" - THE FINAL WEEK OF DANIEL'S 70 WEEKS. He was "cut off" in the "midst of the last week" of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

Charlie

[DeighAnn]

16 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

DeighAnn, here in 7:11 you will find the would of the 4th beast -

 

11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

This represents the fall of pagan Rome to be replaced by papal Rome.

Charlie

Where do you get Rome and papal Rome FROM in these verses?  
 

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

What were the ten horns of Rome? 
 

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


What little horn came up in Rome that cause 3 of the 10 to END?  


When were those 'now 8?' thrones of Rome cast down?  Or do you think that there are 8 'Roman' kingdoms ruling the world and have been ever since and still are to this day?  


Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

 

[Charlie744]

10 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Messiah WAS CUT OFF.  He lived DURING the 69th week but was crucified AFTER that week had ended.  Those the 69th week ended, the 70th didn't begin.  IF the 70th week would have begun then, Christ would have been cut off in the 70th and then 3 1/2 years later the temple would have had to have been destroyed for the 'sacrifice and oblation' (AS everyone else sees it but me) to cease and 3 1/2 years after that Jesus returned, right?

If I seem totally confused it is because I don't understand how Christ is crucified/cut off and then later 'the sacrifice and oblation being cut off mid week is Christ being crucified again.  

Sorry DeighAnn, I left something out... The destruction of the Temple by Titus in 70 AD was NOT to take place WITHIN THE LAST WEEK OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK. This most important week belonged to the Messiah ONLY and would include ONLY those 6 requirements He was given to fulfill by His Father. The physical Temple, AFTER THE CROSS, was no longer important and would never again hold any value to God... the Messiah would be our Holy Temple. But that did not mean the physical Temple would not be predicted to be destroyed...as it is clearly predicted in verse 26... but again, it is predicted in these same verses but it DOES NOT mean it had to be fulfilled within the last week. 

Charlie

Edited June 21, 2022 by Charlie744
hit button accidentally - needed to finish last sentence

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks DeighAnn. The Messiah would arrive AFTER THE 69TH WEEK ENDED. Which means He arrived on the exact first day of the 70th week (baptized in the Jordan), and this began His ministry on earth. But He would indeed be crucified 3.5 years AFTER HE BEGAN HIS MINISTRY OR "IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK" - THE FINAL WEEK OF DANIEL'S 70 WEEKS. He was "cut off" in the "midst of the last week" of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

Charlie

But the temple wasn't destroyed for another 40 years.  You have Jesus being born and dying in 3 1/2 years later.