Did Paul considered certain foods unclean?

[Guest howgozit]

Yhudah said

[Ovedya]

Was that the question we were debating? I didn't think so?!?!?!

You asserted that *Paul* was probably not kashrut (kosher diet). This is the only point I'm disagreeing with. Paul would never tell a goy he had to be kosher, nor would he tell a jew to stop obeying the Torah. Let every man be convinced in his own mind how he will work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

What I was asserting first of all was that Paul obviously realized that the law was being done away with in Christ, and that there was (an is) no longer the need to follow the dietary laws. I believe that I wrote that Paul probably practiced what he preached. Paul would not have written such things if he did not believe them to be applicable to his own life.

You agree that there was a major problem between the Jews and the Gentiles with regard to the keeping of the law. Some Jews refused to fellowship with Gentile believers, and some still insisted that Gentiles must first convert to Judaism before they could be saved and become Christians.

And this was a legitimate debate at the time. A new precedent had been set! What were they going to do with all the gentiles who wanted to join the church? Up to this time, anyone who wanted to join themselves to the G-d of Israel, joined Israel by becoming a Jew. That stuff about "one new man" wasn't in book form for another 150-200 years.

Are you trying to argue that for the first 150 years of the early church it was demanded that Gentiles convert to Judaism first? I find that very hard to swallow. The account in Acts 15 probably happened sometime between A.D. 65 and 68. The result of this first council of the church was that the dissenting one from Jerusalem was wrong, but that only two matters concerning the law were sufficient to keep the peace. Paul

[Guest yod]

What I was asserting first of all was that Paul obviously realized that the law was being done away with in Christ, and that there was (an is) no longer the need to follow the dietary laws.

as a means of attaining righteousness only....Pauls words didn't turn pigs into "foods created to be eaten"

The law shall not pass away as long as there are heavens and the earth according to Jesus. Your interpretation forces an unnecessary contradiction.

I believe that I wrote that Paul probably practiced what he preached. Paul would not have written such things if he did not believe them to be applicable to his own life.

Then why did Paul make Timothy (a jew) get circucised?

Are you trying to argue that for the first 150 years of the early church it was demanded that Gentiles convert to Judaism first? I find that very hard to swallow.

not at all.....what I'm saying is that this was a subject that was not as clear cut as we assume 2000 years later. It took the leadership much debating to come to a conclusion. Many godly men disagreed on this up to that point...and maybe even after it. That doesn't make them all wicked judaisers.

The account in Acts 15 probably happened sometime between A.D. 65 and 68. The result of this first council of the church was that the dissenting one from Jerusalem was wrong, but that only two matters concerning the law were sufficient to keep the peace.

actually there were 4 requirements for the gentiles....2 of which had to do with eating...no blood ....nothing strangled.

Paul

[Matthitjah]

Wow Fantastisc discussion all should read,

Bravo ,

I am gleaning much,

I too have been convicted to the understanding of the regrafting of the Jews.

Much Blessing will come from this. Everywhere I tune and read I see this understanding becoming more clear and evident

Thanks much to Brothers Yhudah, and Yod! :t3:

Once they kicked all the jews out, the church went to sleep for about 16 centuries. 

Amen!

G-d has really put this understanding to my heart. In part due to my own misunderstandings. He has corrected me.

Continue on all concerned for much understanding is here.

Pray that the Messiah returns and reigns from Jerusalem!

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem!

Peace :il: Amen

[traveller]

Agreed Dr Luke!

Gm - yod - you two are a hoot! :tongue:

[Ovedya]

I'm starting to run out of gas on this one. Not that I can't continue the debate, I'm just getting weary of it.....I will reply though.....I will. (Lord have mercy, I am so stubborn).

[traveller]

I'm starting to run out of gas on this one.  Not that I can't continue the debate, I'm just getting weary of it.....I will reply though.....I will.  (Lord have mercy, I am so stubborn).

God-man - that is the best post I have ever seen!

May God give you strength! (He will, ya know)

[Guest ShamashOfYeshua]

Shalom to all,

I have been doing a whole lot of reading in the past month since I have all the time in the world since I have been unemployed since last Sept. and was in search of a fellowship for the last 14 weeks. A little over 10 years ago I studied the Bible for around 3 1/2 years fervently everyday. I then fell away until 14 weeks ago. We are nearing the Time when the Anti-Messiah is going to surface and bring peace to the world by taking power from nations. Are you ready to die instead of taking the mark?

I am a non-Jew who believed in keeping the Torah and prophets as Yeshua has said Himself. If you have read and studied His Word then you would know as well, but then again you might have been blinded by someone else's teachings. I met someone who is Messianic while I was searching for a Fellowship. I was a Christian for years but didn't go to any church since most Churches I went to I didn't feel I fit in. So many seemed so dead and/or unfruitful. Granted there are many Christians that are so fired up for YHWH yet they haven't been taught YHWH's ways but learned ways that were originated by a Pagan Ruler who claimed Christianity as a State Religion. Well just before He took power in Rome a century or so before the Shabbat and circumcision was Outlawed by the Roman Ruler. Of course when the things that set the Believers in YHWH apart from the world were outlawed many Jewish believers forsook the ways of YHWH as He commanded and He didn't change them. He fulfilled them through Yeshua who happens to be Him.

The Good News According to Matthew

5:17 Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Tell me please, has heaven and earth passed away yet? Have all things been accomplished yet? NO on both counts. So tell me non-Jews(I am one as well) who are Grafted in the Vine, should we Obey YHWH's or Man's Doctrines? YHWH has given us a way to live Seperate from the World and Satan has brought confusion into the Assembly just after the Messiah and His original Apostles and Disciples were gone from the earth. And since the Infant Assembly was without the original parents who SEEN THE MESSIAH, Satan had his chance to really confuse what was taught. Remember when Moses had brought the Israelites out of Egypt by YHWH's power and how soon they forgot HIS WAYS and went their own ways.

The Good News According to Matthew

23:1 Then Yeshua spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat. 3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don't do their works; for they say, and don't do.

Even Yeshua says we should do what the Jewish Pharisees and Scribes say and not as they do. And if you remember reading about a wife living with a non-believing husband you can see adventually they can believe as well. Since we would be going to the Synogogue to Worship YHWH. Of course this battle is a great one since all the confusion has been around for around 1900 years.

Here is a link where I have learned quite a bit from:

http://www.torahresource.com/engdwnld.html

Here is one that mainly has the Torah but also has reference materials as well:

http://bible.ort.org/intro1.asp?lang=1

Well on to the discussion about unclean foods and Paul. Let's see here, Paul is a Jew of Jews. A Pharisee of Pharisees. Hmm, to me he is a Torah Observant believer in Yeshua.

I think the following articles can explain it better then I could at this point:

The first one is talks about unclean foods:

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Art...rs%20Vision.pdf

This one is based on Romans 14 and the Shabbat and does talk about Paul and Romans 14 on the unclean food:

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Art...&%20Sabbath.pdf

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

[Guest yod]

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[traveller]

Does anyone else miss posts because it only gives you one reply per visit now? This makes it real hard to follow a discussion now....

YES! I tried explaning that to George, but you know me. Can't 'splain nuttin. :bg: Look in Question to the Editor. However, with me it seems to be random.

Anyhoo, I now have to look at every forum, and go by the time to see if I've seen it.