Did Paul considered certain foods unclean?

[Guest ShamashOfYeshua]

I'm starting to run out of gas on this one.  Not that I can't continue the debate, I'm just getting weary of it.....I will reply though.....I will.  (Lord have mercy, I am so stubborn).

LOL

you ain't seen stubborn yet!!! :il:

I luvs a good debate.....especially when someone can explain why they believe what they believe.

Does anyone else miss posts because it only gives you one reply per visit now? This makes it real hard to follow a discussion now....

I just got started

I won't be on until I get another connection. I will be offline by the end of this month which is also my birthday month I have to move out by the end of the month if you all havent' already seen in my post in prayers. Still no job in sight and my truck still sits broke down. Hopefully the person will be picking it up this week and finally fix it after over six months.

I haven't been posting more then one since I first came here and posted like six.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

[wordsower]

ShamashOfYeshua,

You know everything happens for a reason and I would say God is trying to get your attention. He will supply all of your needs, maybe He wants you somewhere else. He moved me about a year ago and I thought "what in the world is He up to?" Well, He landed me in the BEST church in the world--just my humble opinion and I am happy beyond words!

Be careful about legalist that tell you to adhere to a bunch of rules. It takes the focus off of what Jesus does and puts in on what we can do. The Holy Spirit is in the business of convicting us and He does a great job!

Praying for you!

[Guest ShamashOfYeshua]

wordsower,

I would be more worried about listening to someone telling me that I don't need to obey YHWH and that I should obey Man's doctrines that are actually from Satan. You are absolutely right things happen for a reason, I did believe as you did before, but you know "My EYES have been opened to the Truth of the Lies that Satan has brought through the Roman Church and the little leaven that spread throughout Christianity and on top of that the Jews were persecuted by those who claimed to be Christians since the Roman Empire for almost 1800 years.

I have a question. Do you obey laws of the land? I would suppose you do. That pertains to the laws of man. Now about the laws YHWH gave to Israel long long ago I would say supersede any of man's laws which pertain to doctrine. Now Man has made up doctrines which many follow as Law don't YOU? Tell me, what laws would you rather follow, YHWH's or Man's? I sure hope you would say YHWH's for even Yeshua said His Laws are not a Burden. Didn't Yeshua say to take His Yoke? Yes He did.

Tell me please, where did Salvation come from? From Yeshua's own mouth "The Jews" If you don't know that already then I will show you scripture. If you don't know that not one jot or one word will pass from the Laws of YHWH until Heaven and Earth pass away, then I will need to show you that as well. But first about unclean animals:

Here is a very interesting article I found on DRS(Dead Removal Service) !

http://www.yaih.com/DRS.htm

The DRS

Warning: The following is not for the weak.....

Rom 14:1-4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for Elohim has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Elohim is able to make him stand.

But it is for the strong and established in Yahshuah!

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Why do Christian leaders think the "Dead Removal Service" is for the Living?

Many established Christians are taught by Christian leaders to use Peter's vision to justify eating anything, even the "DRS". So I must ask, "Why do established Christian's and their leaders eat the DRS"?

When a man or creature dies they have a visit by the DRS.

When any creature dies on earth, it is consumed by maggots and worms for the dead.

When a man dies at sea, he is consumed by shrimp and other consumers of rotting flesh eaters for the dead.

When a creature dies at sea, it is consumed by shrimp and other consumers of rotting flesh eaters for the dead.

What do you think removed the carcasses of mankind from the world during the second flood?

Would YAH want you to eat the worms and maggots from a dead man?

Would YAH want you to eat the shrimp and other rotten flesh eaters from a dead man at sea?

Shrimp and other consumers of rotting flesh eaters are the worms and maggots for the dead of the sea.

Would you eat a creature that consumed a loved one?

Would you eat a creature that removes the dead from this world?

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Now you understand why some creatures are an abomination to His people, but not to those who are not His people!

I cannot believe that Christian leaders think it is perfectly fine to eat what removes the dead from this earth and teach men so!.

This my friend is another abomination!

Do you really think the "Dead Removal Service" is for the living? If you do, please save enough for the dead!

-----

Many established Christians are taught by Christian leaders to use Peter's vision to justify eating anything, even "Monkey". So I must ask.....

Any strong and established reading this eat monkey, shell fish, and the abominations?

Acts 10:11-13 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."

First thing is "wild beasts" was added to the scripture, so this leaves "four-footed animals of the earth." A monkey is two footed, and sea creatures are not included with Peters vision.

So you christian leaders please do not use "Peter's Vision" anymore to justify eating monkey, shell fish and the abomination!

Then you must consider, why would Yahuah want Christian leaders to teach His people to eat what is unclean and abomination to His own people? Where is the scriptures that teach abominations are now clean abominations?

Lev 11:10-23 But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you. They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination. Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales--that shall be an abomination to you.

And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination : the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 14 the kite, and the falcon after its kind; every raven after its kind, the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the seagull, and the hawk after its kind; the little owl, the fisher owl, and the screech owl; the white owl, the jackdaw, and the carrion vulture; the stork, the heron after its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

'All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you.

Try bringing a monkey dish to a church gathering and if they do not want to eat it, then quote them the same scriptures they quote you to justify eating shrimp and pork, for you do not want them to break a New Testament Commandment, right?.

Luke 10:7-8 Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.

1 Tim 4:4-5 For every creature of Elohim is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of Elohim and prayer.

Do you Christian leaders still think that there is no unclean creatures in the New Testament times?

Rev 18:1-2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

So you see by the NJKV or any version, John mentioned a unclean bird. But the interesting thing is, there is more to that scripture that what translaters translated. So is should read as follows....

Rev 18:1-2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird and a cage for every unclean and hated beast.

The last part of Rev 18-2 can be found from the Interlinear Bible .

NT:2342 Beast therion (thay-ree'-on); diminutive from the same as NT:2339; a dangerous animal: KJV - (venomous, wild) beast.

NT:169 Unclean akathartos (ak-ath'-ar-tos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of NT:2508 (meaning cleansed); impure (ceremonially, morally [lewd] or specially, [demonic]): KJV - foul, unclean.

So we have an unclean bird which was translated without the unclean beast, so this alone (bird) proves that all creatures are not clean in New Testament times as commonly taught, otherwise John would not have used the word "unclean" with the word bird nor with the word beast!

But why did they leave out "unclean beasts" in the translations? For it is found in the text. Interesting to say the least!

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The DRS, abominal and unclean creatures are not good, nor is it "OF" Yahuah for food , so make sure you do not do what is describedin the following scripture, which pertains to the Day of Yahuah's judgment!

Isa 66:16-17 For by fire and by His sword Yahuah will judge all flesh; and the slain of Yahuah shall be many. "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says Yahuah.

Yahuah's Assembly In Haderek

Really makes you look at unclean in a way I haven't seen others show it.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

[Guest ShamashOfYeshua]

I don't profess to know a great deal for I doing allot of reading and studies on Messianic Judaism and therefore I can only point you to scriptures that I have found.

Quote:

The Good News According to Yochanan (John)

4:22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

Quote:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

The Good News According to Matthew

5:17 Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Quote:

The Good News According to Matthew

4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'

...

7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

...

16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.

...

19:16 Behold, one came to him and said, "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

17 He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

...

23:1 Then Yeshua spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat. 3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don't do their works; for they say, and don't do.

Quote:

The Good News According to Luke

16:16 The Torah and the Prophets were until Yochanan. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Torah to become void.

...

23:50 Behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the council, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), from Arimathaea, a city of the Judeans, who was also waiting for the Kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was cut in stone, where no one had ever been laid. 54 It was the day of the Preparation, and the Sabbath was drawing near. 55 The women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 They returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

If these people who are Jews followed and Believed what Yeshua taught then why are they Obeying the Commandments of Torah? I can't remember, yet isn't the preparation of spices and ointments also taught in the Torah?

Quote:

Yochanan's First Letter 5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

If you have Faith then you learn what you should do to please G_D don't you? And G_D did give the Torah as a guide for us to live our lives didn't he? Who then shall we obey Man's doctrines or G_D's ways He has taught since Moses? And who did Salvation come from again?

Quote:

The Good News According to Yochanan (John)

4:22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

So tell me do we go by ordnances that YHWH gave to Moses and the Prophets and have the testimony of the Messiah Yeshua? Or shall we believe the many lies going throughout the world since the Messiah and the original Apostles and Disciples were gone from the scene? For when the Fathers(as some call them) are away the children must play.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

[Guest zebulon]

Many of the things Jesus said in the Gospels was specifically to and for the Jews of that generation, as one covenant came to a close and a new one was being born.

I am satisfied with these truths:

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." Col 2:10

Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed!

[The Journey]

The Church is not Israel. Everyone ponder that.

- Steve

[Guest zebulon]

The opposing question would be "Why did G-d call these things unclean in the first place if they are not?"

For the same reason he said 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' in His Law, but that was imposed for a specific time, for a specific people, for a specific reason and was then blotted out when Jesus appeared, who said...

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Let's remember who wrote the Law in the first place: Christ, pre-incarnate.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7:12

God said to Peter plainly, "And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 10:11

Takes a real oddball to tell the Lord "No, not gonna do it." Maybe that's why almost 20 yrs later Peter was still having trouble with this, and Paul publically condemned him for his hypocrisy...

"I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" Gal 2:11

The clean and unclean animals were also types and figures, as they examples symbolic truths God wanted to impart, but which sinful man could not comprehend. The pig, was unclean, for example because once cleaned, it returns to the muck and myre and soils itself all over again. This is an image of the backslider. Whereas the cow was clean, as it had the split hoof, denoting the man of God being in two worlds at once, the temporal/material and the eternal/spiritual, and it chewed the cud, which was symbolic of the righteous man who "brings up" the word of God over and over in his mind, and "chews", ie, meditates on the word of God.

Because the people were rebellious and stubborn, and because they broke the covenant the moment it was established by their grumbling and desire to return to slavery in Egypt, the Law given them was deliberately made a severe burden..

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." Gal 3:19

When the seed came, it was taken out of the way. The ordinances which were imposed upon the rebellious nation had served its purpose...

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" Eph 2:15

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col 2:14

[Guest ShamashOfYeshua]

Quote:

The Good News According to Matthew

5:17 Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Had Heaven and Earth passed away? No it hasn't. I do believe the Pharisees have added so many fence laws around the Torah that it became a burden. That doesn't mean the Torah is obsolete.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

[Guest ShamashOfYeshua]

Every where that I use the word "you" means no one specific. I would say the thread name "Did Paul considered certain foods unclean?" should actually be "Does YHWH still consider certain foods unclean?"

So tell me all who hold to not observing Torah, what then are we to observe? Is it what ever Doctrine MAN writes up according to HIS UNDERSTANDING? Or shall we observe what was given by YHWH? YHWH said certain foods were unclean for good reason. They are NOT GOOD FOR US PERIOD, NO IFs ANDs or BUTs about it. If we don't hold observance in LOVE then we shouldn't be holding them at all. Torah after all means "INSTRUCTIONS" NOT "LAW" So I reckon you can do what ever pleases YOU RATHER THEN YHWH, because to me that is exactly what it will be. How many itching ears does the world have? I would say the majority have itching ears. Not that I am impling anyone at all. Let the Ruach(Spirit) convict you, Not ME.

I am getting to the point that I could careless what you choose to do, who ever that is. But tell me, is that LOVE and in the Ruach? Aren't we who believe in the Messiah Yeshua supposed to be in ONE FAITH, ONE SPIRIT, ONE GOD, ONE MEDIATOR? If so, then we ought to be learning what is TRUTH no matter how painful it may seem to hurt our ears, because you know, Hasatan will be there causing the pain in your ears so you won't want to accept the TRUTH.

So who has the TRUTH? Tell me if you see a person that does all the GOOD things in the Bible and yet teaches FALSE DOCTRINES IGNORANTLY, is that person RIGHTEOUS in the EYES OF YHWH? Did the B'rit Khadashah(NT) teach us to go by our own UNDERSTANDING? Does it say that the Torah and the Prophets are ABOLISHED? Has HEAVEN and EARTH PASSED AWAY? Doesn't it say those that OBEY the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and KEEP THE FAITH OF YESHUA will inherit the KINGDOM OF GOD? If so then why do you believe what some MAN says by HIS UNDERSTANDING saying that all those things are PASSED AWAY? There are even Messianics that are telling me that Gentiles don't need to Observe Torah. IF we are all of ONE FAITH, then I would think we all OBSERVE THE SAME THINGS. NO DIFFERENCES AT ALL. JEW AND GENTILE ARE THE SAME IN YHWH's EYES.

Remember this is a SPIRITUAL WAR and Hasatan has all the knowledge from the BEGINNING to use against us who have only been a SPECK in COMPARISON. Doesn't scripture say that those that obey are the ones who are FILLED WITH THE RUACH(SPIRIT). It isn't anyone that aren't obeying is it? When you first believe you are a CHILD in YHWH. That means you are IGNORANT of the TRUTH. Yes, that includes ME. Tell me when you have learned and grew in YHWH to the point that you are now a TEACHER or rather an ADULT in YHWH that UNDERSTANDS what is to be TAUGHT. I don't care if you have a MASTERS IN THEOLOGY, that doesn't mean you know what your talking about. Unless you are FILLED with the RUACH you won't be teaching the whole TRUTH. Now let me state again: Unless you are an ADULT in YHWH and OBEY YHWH then you won't be filled with the RUACH. That is scriptual.

Tell me why are the FEASTS observed in the 1000 year reign of YESHUA if they aren't for NOW?

If those two COMMANDMENTS YESHUA said FULFILLS the TORAH then why aren't you doing what TORAH contains? For if you aren't then you aren't obeying the TWO COMMANDMENTS that YESHUA said Fulfills them?

I see so many people swayed by this Doctrine and that Doctrine that Man has Written in HIS OWN UNDERSTANDING that they are causing so many people to not OBEY YHWH that it makes me sick inside. Yes for the longest time I was SWAYED to and Fro by every wind and doctrine. What does the Wind stand for? What do you think? SPIRIT. Comes back to Hasatan again doesn't it. For he has been a LIAR since that Beginning mixing LIES with TRUTH. Are you sure your filled with the RUACH of YHWH? The Scriptures say to check every SPIRIT doesn't it? I am sick of quoting Scriptures because it sure looks like people don't even READ or even UNDERSTAND what they say, when in fact it is SIMPLE to Understand.

YES, THESE WORDS ARE FOR ME AS WELL. For I am not perfect in my walk either. I think PRIDE is one of the MAJOR CAUSES for people to be BLIND to the TRUTH. One is so proud that they know the Truth, just like a Child when they learn something, that they won't be able to admit they are wrong until they are CORRECTED with a GOOD SPANKING. Tell me, anyone, have you hit bottom in this world? Have you ever felt so WORTHLESS or USELESS? Because really we all are. Without YHWH that is. Our Righteousness is dirty rags to HIM, without HIM as our Instructor of how we live our life on this world that we aren't part of.

Forgive me if I am blunt today.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

[Guest yod]

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