The thief on the cross.

[grahampaul]

36 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Ok, you are free to believe that. However,  our souls do not "sleep". They go to be in the presence of the Lord ( if of course He gives us that resurrected soul at the moment of salvation) upon death. Then we wait in the glory of heaven until the last day when we receive our new spiritual bodies...." unto salvation".

never said our souls sleep,we are body  soul and spirit.our soul goes back from whence it came.

[JohnD]

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: 

"The thief on the cross was the first Christian to go directly to heaven in death."

Disagree. The first " Christian" to be with the Lord in his spirit ( absent in his body, present with the Lord) was most likely Abel. 

 

Abel was a Christian?

How can he be a follower of Christ (definition of Christian) if Christ had not been born yet?

And you have to prove that this verse is not valid:

John 3:13 (AV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The answer is before the cross of Christ the spirits of all righteous people who died or were translated went to the side of Sheol often referred to as Abraham's Bosom.

Which Jesus emptied by taking those "captive" there to heaven just before the thief on the cross died at sunset:

Ephesians 4:8–10 (AV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Luke 23:43 (AV)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise appears 3 times in scripture each time referring to heaven where God is enthroned (2 Corinthians 12:3-4).

 

 

[Dan Knight]

14 minutes ago, grahampaul said:

never said our souls sleep,we are body  soul and spirit.our soul goes back from whence it came.

Gen 2:7 "...and man became a living soul". Humans don't have souls, we are souls. And, the soul that sins  shall die.

[JohnD]

Actually we are:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul is the overlap / buffer between the two realities that are us.

1. body (soma) ← dust and water

2. spirit (pneuma) ← ether / ethos

3. soul (psuche) ← psyche

In the resurrection we will be spirit-bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (AV)
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by JohnD

[Dan Knight]

5 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Actually we are:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul is the overlap / buffer between the two realities that are us.

1. body (soma) ← dust and water

2. spirit (pneuma) ← ether / ethos

3. soul (psuche) ← psyche

The body, vessel, carries the soul, which has life imparted to it by the breath of God, the spirit.

[Dan Knight]

10 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Actually we are:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul is the overlap / buffer between the two realities that are us.

1. body (soma) ← dust and water

2. spirit (pneuma) ← ether / ethos

3. soul (psuche) ← psyche

Actually we are what?

[grahampaul]

2 minutes ago, Dan Knight said:

Actually we are what?

Dust...with soul and  Spirit, to those that believe.

[Dan Knight]

5 hours ago, grahampaul said:

Dust...with soul and  Spirit, to those that believe.

OK, I think I see what you are saying. Take one ingredient out and we do not exist, right? If so then yes I agree. 

  Per Matt 10:28 humans are not "immortal " beings. The penalty of sin is to be un-existed. Destroyed, which is the 2nd death. As I mentioned before, The first lie told a human being is that we shall not surely die.  That God was a liar. Many believe that 'surely die ' is to be alive, but separated from God. To be, (exist), without God. If we are eternal beings and can be saved, why cannot angels be saved? 

  We need to be saved from the penalty of sin which is 'surely die'. If the penalty is to be separated from God,  then when Jesus cried out "..Father why have you forsaken me.." the penalty would have been payed in full and He would not have had to die. And Angels could be saved. 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Dan Knight

[Bluedragon]

12 hours ago, grahampaul said:

It is written in scripture., cant argue with that , two thieves (robbers) with Christ and after the romans had parted there lots then two malfactors,cant see the problem,tradition aint truth.would you like scriptual refs?

Point them out. 

When Jesus died the Romans broke the legs of both thieves to hasten their deaths. There were no other men being crucified at the same time. At that point in history Crucifixion is a one day affair. The first of the right now generation. Breaking the legs prevents you from pushing up to relive the stress on your lungs. You drown in your blood when the legs are crushed. 

Simply because of a shoddy translation issue that challenges some scholars, does not translate to more than two crucified at the same time. Robbers and thieves are the same thing. The crucifixion was hurried to a conclusion because of the earthquake and a storm combined with darkness over the earth. Jesus was already dead and the two crucified with him were dispatched quickly. 

There are two groups of Theology. A liberal group that invents things not found in the text and a more conservative exact reading of the scriptures. Creating a myth between robbers and thieves by definition can be easily summed up by the exact Greek translation. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Bluedragon
additions

[grahampaul]

3 hours ago, Bluedragon said:

Point them out. 

When Jesus died the Romans broke the legs of both thieves to hasten their deaths. There were no other men being crucified at the same time. At that point in history Crucifixion is a one day affair. The first of the right now generation. Breaking the legs prevents you from pushing up to relive the stress on your lungs. You drown in your blood when the legs are crushed. 

Simply because of a shoddy translation issue that challenges some scholars, does not translate to more than two crucified at the same time. Robbers and thieves are the same thing. The crucifixion was hurried to a conclusion because of the earthquake and a storm combined with darkness over the earth. Jesus was already dead and the two crucified with him were dispatched quickly. 

There are two groups of Theology. A liberal group that invents things not found in the text and a more conservative exact reading of the scriptures. Creating a myth between robbers and thieves by definition can be easily summed up by the exact Greek translation. 

ok,so in.
Mathew 27v38 and Mark 15v27, both say there were two thieves."duo lestai" in greek=two robbers
Luke states there were two malefactors."duo kakoorgoi"
Two differant types of people.
In mathew 17v44 and mark 15v32 both thieves revilled Jesus.
In luke23v39an40 only one malefactor railed on him the other belived Jesus to be Lord.
In Luke 23 the two malefactors were led with him to be put to death and when they got there they crucified Him and the malefactors one on the right hand and one on the left.
however in Mathew27  it states that after the roman soldiers had crucified Him and parted his garments Then there were two thieves crucified with him.
So i find two sets of people crucified with him.
The KJV says thieves,this is incorrect,the greek words used is" Duo Listai" (two robbers) not duo kleptes "two thieves)

Not a salvational issue, but interesting.

and please dot smear me with cultish liberal leanings, if we have a problem take it scripture.