Daniel 9:25 ... need some thoughts, please.

[Alive]

I would like to be able to comment and help with your OP, but I must admit eschatology is not my strong point. I will offer a thought that is a very general one and doesn't aim at any specific point of view. That is that what I have observed over time is that many of these prophecies are viewed through the lens of current events. Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other and often forcing meaning from such. I see this as a fundamental problem.

He ducks for cover.

[Charlie744]

24 minutes ago, Alive said:

I would like to be able to comment and help with your OP, but I must admit eschatology is not my strong point. I will offer a thought that is a very general one and doesn't aim at any specific point of view. That is that what I have observed over time is that many of these prophecies are viewed through the lens of current events. Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other and often forcing meaning from such. I see this as a fundamental problem.

He ducks for cover.

Thank you and I certainly agree. Which is why I believe there are so many misinterpretations in Daniel that are considered "accepted interpretations". 

Which is why I am attempting to go back to 536 BC and try to understand why there is this 80 year span of time .. God could just as easily started with the 536 BC date as the beginning of a new 150 week of years prophecy and made the 3 separate periods total 150...

But He has a reason for every jot and tittle and this, to me, is a big hole that needs to be filled in..

Once again, any advice from anyone within this forum is greatly appreciated. This is a tough one! Charlie  

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

This interval between the 69th and 70th week is known as the age of Grace, and the church age. Augustine, the RCC and others claim: The church inherited the promises God gave the Jews [replacement theology] because they murdered Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Now wait a minute… everyone knows there is a space between the number 69 and 70! 
Some have little spaces, some have large spaces, and some have just the right spaces .. 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Finally, since there does not seem to be ANY physical reason for this "80 year" time span. then it must be one that is "spiritual" and meant for us to see in a spiritual context. Since there is also no information given for the 62 week time period, the 7 week time period should also follow along...(non-physical). 

Timing, timing, timing. It's a crazy thing. I mean, we only see what's under the sky and not very clearly at that. How are we to then discern what goes on in the Throne room and how much less in all the abode of the Most High God. I would think many things would have to come together for the ultimate destiny of the city, Temple and the paving of the way for Jesus.

I think of this sometimes:

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 

 and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The number 80 is not uncommon in the scriptures nor is 40 (two 4o's for the 80). Since this entire prophecy is about restoration,  then the 7 and 62 must be something restorative that only can be accomplished by the coming Messiah. What is God restoring in His people, His city, walls and streets, in a spiritual manner before His coming? If we can answer this, we will know if our mile marker is 457 or 445.

Clearly you're testing a hypothesis. What is the actual question? Maybe I missed it.  

 

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

PS. Here is my latest thoughts on this - the Jews were physically set free from Egypt but due to their lack of faith and disobedience they were punished for 40 years. The Jews were released physically from Babylon but may have also angered God and were punished for 40 years. The other 40 years (pure conjecture) is the same punishment period but they relate to the Jews over in Babylon in the book of Esther. - same time frame, same King, Persia, etc.,).

Now you see the confusion and the reason I reached out to the good folks in this forum. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I really do not want to leave 9:25 commentary uncompleted because of this very important  7-62-1 prophecy.

Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

24 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Timing, timing, timing. It's a crazy thing. I mean, we only see what's under the sky and not very clearly at that. How are we to then discern what goes on in the Throne room and how much less in all the abode of the Most High God. I would think many things would have to come together for the ultimate destiny of the city, Temple and the paving of the way for Jesus.

I think of this sometimes:

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 

 and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Clearly you're testing a hypothesis. What is the actual question? Maybe I missed it.  

 

 

First of all, it is amazing you brought up chapter 10… I have spent a lot of time with that..

The 21 days is 21 years where there was so much turmoil happening in Persia during the 80 years. Gabriel was helping with the restoration of Jerusalem and the the Esther issue back in Babylon… too much to handle so Michael came to help to defeat those “evil forces” attempting to ensure the Jews were not successful in either location and therefore destroy the completions necessary for the 69th week. Notice it says “kings of Persia, not king” because during the 80 years there were more than one Persian king that was not sympathetic to the Iews. 
 

Total span of time = 80 years

Time Gabriel helped = 21 years (King Xerses) and the 10 years when Esther was having issues.. 

All contributing to the span of time. 

[Charlie744]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Timing, timing, timing. It's a crazy thing. I mean, we only see what's under the sky and not very clearly at that. How are we to then discern what goes on in the Throne room and how much less in all the abode of the Most High God. I would think many things would have to come together for the ultimate destiny of the city, Temple and the paving of the way for Jesus.

I think of this sometimes:

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 

 and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Clearly you're testing a hypothesis. What is the actual question? Maybe I missed it.  

 

 

Could it also be that I am using the wrong start date to calculate the span of time  - rather than a mechanical calculation from 536 to 456 or 80 years, I should be using the date associated with the second group  of Jews returning to Jerusalem under HAGGAI in 525 BC?

[WilliamL]

On 8/4/2022 at 3:42 AM, Charlie744 said:

Why did He choose 457 BC? 

Because that was when Ezra returned to Jerusalem to "restore" (Dan. 9:25) the Law. If the Jews had not had the Law restored to them, 'the builders would have built in vain.'

This is why, in Judaism, Ezra is considered second in importance only to Moses among all the Jews who have ever lived.

Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the Law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach statutes and ordinances in Israel. ... 12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of heaven... 25 ...you, Ezra, according to your God-given wisdom, set magistrates and judges who may judge all the people who are in the region beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and teach those who do not know them.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Because that was when Ezra returned to Jerusalem to "restore" (Dan. 9:25) the Law. If the Jews had not had the Law restored to them, 'the builders would have built in vain.'

This is why, in Judaism, Ezra is considered second in importance only to Moses among all the Jews who have ever lived.

Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the Law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach statutes and ordinances in Israel. ... 12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of heaven... 25 ...you, Ezra, according to your God-given wisdom, set magistrates and judges who may judge all the people who are in the region beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and teach those who do not know them.

Thank you… I agree with the 457 date, but I am trying to understand why there is 80 years from 536 to 457… 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Could it also be that I am using the wrong start date to calculate the span of time  - rather than a mechanical calculation from 536 to 456 or 80 years, I should be using the date associated with the second group  of Jews returning to Jerusalem under HAGGAI in 525 BC?

Maybe it's the returning Jews that are unimportant. The prophecy does say, "...from the decree..." and not "...from when a group of Jews return..."