God's Wrath

[missmuffet]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Adhoc,

Sorry brother, but I totally disagree,

Tribulation is different from God's wrath.

Tribulation is "thlipsis".... a pressing, pressing together, pressure

Tribulation is also persecution, affliction, anguish.

Scripture tells us in Romans 5:3..... "And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation  brings about perseverance"

Romans 12:12...."rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer"

2 Thes 1:4.... "therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions  which you endure"

Rev 1:9....."I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation  and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus"

Rev 2:10.... "‘Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation  for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life"

Scripture encourages the saints to persevere. 

Look again at Romans 5:3-5:

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

Do you see it?

"We exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope"

Scripture does not equate tribulation with wrath. Two totally different words.

Wrath is "thymos and orge"...... tribulation is "thlipsis"

Thymos and orge is God's wrath/anger towards sin......

Thlipsis is God's testing, His proving..... "“Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”....Acts 14:22

I do not believe that the born again Christian will go through the 7 year tribulation. They will be taken to heaven in the rapture of the Church before the tribulation

Revelation 3:10

[Keras]

6 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I do not believe that the born again Christian will go through the 7 year tribulation. They will be taken to heaven in the rapture of the Church before the tribulation

Revelation 3:10

Actually it will be only a three and a half year Great Tribulation and the faithful people of God will be kept in a place of safety on earth for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

[missmuffet]

50 minutes ago, Keras said:

Actually it will be only a three and a half year Great Tribulation and the faithful people of God will be kept in a place of safety on earth for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

The book of Daniel tells us it will be 7 years. The worst is 3 1/2 years. It is Israel during that time that God will preserve a godly remnant. That is what you are referring to in Revelation 12:14. Although according to Zechariah 13:8, 2/3 of Israel in the land will perish. 

[Keras]

10 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The book of Daniel tells us it will be 7 years. The worst is 3 1/2 years. It is Israel during that time that God will preserve a godly remnant. That is what you are referring to in Revelation 12:14. Although according to Zechariah 13:8, 2/3 of Israel in the land will perish. 

Daniel 9:27 plainly says the 70th 'week' will be divided into 2 halves. The second half is referred to in 3 ways, in Revelation; 3 1.2 years, 42 months and 1260 days. It will end the day Jesus Returns. 

The people taken to that place of safety are the ones mentioned in Daniel 11:32; the ones who are faithful to God and who refuse to violate their Covenant with Him. They will be the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. 

[missmuffet]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

Daniel 9:27 plainly says the 70th 'week' will be divided into 2 halves. The second half is referred to in 3 ways, in Revelation; 3 1.2 years, 42 months and 1260 days. It will end the day Jesus Returns. 

The people taken to that place of safety are the ones mentioned in Daniel 11:32; the ones who are faithful to God and who refuse to violate their Covenant with Him. They will be the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. 

Suit yourself.

[Keras]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Suit yourself.

What suits me, is what the prophetic Word actually says, not teachings that are not supported by scripture. 

Soon to happen; is coming the great world changer of the Sixth Seal disaster. We must all keep strong in our faith during this great test. 1 Peter 4:12

[missmuffet]

7 minutes ago, Keras said:

What suits me, is what the prophetic Word actually says, not teachings that are not supported by scripture. 

Soon to happen; is coming the great world changer of the Sixth Seal disaster. We must all keep strong in our faith during this great test. 1 Peter 4:12

That suits me as well. God's literal true Word. 

[WilliamL]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

Jesus tells us what the harvest is.

"Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”....Matthew 13:30

The harvest is when the righteous are gathered into the Lord's barn, then later in verse 39, Jesus tells us the harvest is the end of the age and the reapers are the angels, so this harvest then is the rapture and it must proceed the wrath of God.

The testimony of the 1st angel...... 

"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”.... Rev 14:6-7

Notice the angel says that the hour of His judgment has come. So once God has judged, then and only then is  He ready to pour out His wrath.

I agree with most of your post, including your conclusion. This section I do not.

First, "has come" above is an aorist active indicative verb, best translated in the simple past tense: "came." Being aorist ('without horizon/time'), it does not indicate when it came. The exact same aorist verb is used in Rev. 6:17 and 11:18. The case of 6:17 marks the very beginning of the wrath, since this is the first use.

The subsequent uses, 14:7 and 11:15, refer back to that first use. That is, at the time of these verses, the wrath had already came, and it (the wrath) is then in its midst; to be completed with the 7th Bowl judgment.

Second, the harvest of the wheat does not refer to the Church, but to Israel. There is a categorical difference between the Firstfruits/Firstborn and the Harvest. The Church belongs to the former: "the Church of the Firstborn." Heb. 12:23; Col. 1:18 Israel belongs to the Harvest. The explanation is too lengthy to post here, but can be found in the following two blogs:

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

58. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-2/

Edited August 22, 2022 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, JoeCanada said:

                               God's Wrath

                             WHEN? does it begin?

The references are from the Book of Revelation, where we see 5 witnesses as to the timing of God's Wrath.

WHEN God's wrath is poured out is important because God has told us specifically that Jesus will return and rescue believers before the final wrath.

"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come".... 1 Thes 1:10

There are 2 Greek words that describe wrath. 

The first is "thymos"..... it means intense rage over a short period of time. In the case of God's rage, it is a righteous rage against sin itself, similar to Jesus driving out the money changers from the temple.

The second is "orge"..... it basically carries the same meaning but the subtle difference is that it's a more long-standing anger over a more protracted period.

Both of these words are found in Rev 14:9-10:

"Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath (thymos) of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger;(orge) and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

These witnesses also speak of God's judgment, and it is impossible to consider a righteous God pouring out His wrath until He has judged. To do otherwise is impetuous - something God definitely is not. So when the witnesses speak of judgment, it must proceed wrath.

Let's look at what the witnesses tell or show us:

1st witness:

This witness is the Apostle John, and he tells us when God's wrath (thymos) ends.

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath (thymos) of God is finished."...Rev 15:1

The seven last plagues are in the seven bowls, which are shallow and poured out quickly.

Wrath is finished with these 7 bowls. John tells us they are the last aspect of the wrath of God.

If the bowls are the last portion of the plagues..... then some other portion is first..... this is just common sense.

" in them...... the wrath of God is finished"

John is the final witness. He doesn't tell us when the wrath of God begins, but he does tells us when the wrath of God ends.

"Teleó" doesn't connote a portion of what came before. It's the next step in the process. In this case the last phase in the entire process of the end of the age. Thymos or orge or what came before doesn't define this time of wrath.

 

 

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Teleó" doesn't connote a portion of what came before. It's the next step in the process. In this case the last phase in the entire process of the end of the age. Thymos or orge or what came before doesn't define this time of wrath.

 

 

Hi Diaste,

There are 4 other witnesses in the BofR.

Why are you discounting their testimony?

John is only ONE of FIVE witnesses. He tells us when the wrath of God is finished. 

It's up to us as bible students to dig thru and uncover truths. The other 4 witnesses show us more truth to help us.