Faith and Works

[Guest shiloh357]

Jake -

Are we talking about salvation or Christian living?  I am feeling confused here.

For salvation is not merrited on works.  However, Christian living does merit works - you know - producing fruit.  Jesus said that the trees that do not produce fruit are chopped down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point!!

[Jake for Jesus]

Nebula wrote:

Are we talking about salvation or Christian living? I am feeling confused here.

For salvation is not merited on works. However, Christian living does merit works - you know - producing fruit. Jesus said that the trees that do not produce fruit are chopped down.

My Response:

What we are discussing is the relation between faith and works referred to in many passages of the New Testament.

There are six great foundational doctrines of the Christian faith listed in Hebrews 6:1-2. The six doctrines listed there as the foundation of the doctrine of Christ are as follows:

1. Repentance from dead works

2. Faith toward God

3. The doctrine of baptisms'

4. Laying on of hands

5. Resurrection of the dead

6. Eternal Judgment

After coming to faith in Jesus, to have accepted Jesus as Lord, and as God our Savior. We must come to fully understand these six foundational truths of the Christian faith in order to be able to lay a sound doctrinal foundation in place after having come to biblical Christian faith according to my understanding.

It is nescessary that we come to fully understand the relation between faith and works to begin to undertand the first two foundational doctrines listed in above found in Hebrews 6:1-2. Notice I said to begin to fully understand the first two doctrines. And to come to understand the relation between faith and works is a nescessary part in being able to begin to fully understand the first two foundational doctrines.

I shared this to help you to more understand what is being discussed.

I am going to ask you now a question to help you to join into this discussion that would relate to this discussion. After more posts you will have not problem coming into the discussion and in more seeing what is being discussed.

What was the great mistake that Israel made in attempting to achieve righteousness found in Scripture?

Is the same mistake Israel make in attempting to achieve righteousness also being made today by millions of professing Christians around the world?

If you believe that to be so? Why do you think that has happened?

If you like why don't you share your thoughts about it.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

What was the great mistake that Israel more in attempting to achieve righteousness?

Is the same mistake Israel make in attempting to achieve righteousness in biblical times being also made today by millioins of professing Christians around the world?

If you believe that to be so? Why do you think that has happened?

Israel's history was not one of trying to achieve righteousness, but one of idolatry. What sticks out about Israel was their constant rebellion to the commandments of God, not an inordinate, legalistic observance of them.

Some of the Pharisees of the first century were legalistic, but they hardly characterize Israel as a whole.

As for Christians today, the divorce rate among believers is as high as the those who are not believers. 80% of Christian teens are sexually active, and a good portion of them cannot honestly say that sex outside of marriage is wrong. There is a high percentage of Christians who are addicted to pornopraphy, and other sexual sins as well.

Christians are doing ANYTHING but attempting to earn righteousness by works. Most Christians are living on the edge trying to see how much sin they can get away with. They are caught up in materialism, they are selfish, abusive, and Chruches all over the United States are turning into nothing more than social clubs. Most Christians don't even read their Bibles except when they are sitting in Church, much less live by its teachings.

You might find pockets of legalists here and there, but they are an exception, and not the rule.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh --- this I will let you know that I read your last post.

I can agree much with what you said, only I would differ with you about the problem of legalism being so limited to so few sections of the contemporary church. Based on my own personal observations in being a Christian believer and to have been in assoication with Catholics, Protestants and Pentecostals over a period now for more than twenty years, my observation has been just the opposite of yours. However, to agrue that as for how many is to miss the point. And based on some other things you said, I fear you may have taken some of what I said in a way that had not been intended.

In the last post we agreed on what Paul had continually and emphatically taught for example in ROMANS 4:4-5 he says:

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believed on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Notice the phrase "to him who does not work but believes"

In order to obtain salvation by faith, the first thing any man must do is to stop "working" --- to stop trying to earn salvation. Salvation comes through faith alone, through doing nothing but believing. So long as man tries to do anything whatever to earn salvation, he cannot experience the salvation of God which is received by faith alone. And about that you said you agree.

In fact this was the great mistake which Israel made, as Paul --- himself an Israelite --- explains in ROMANS 9:31-31 (NIV) he says:

But Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

And again in ROMANS 10:3 Paul says concerning Israel:

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

So why did Israel fail to obtain the salvation God had prepared for them?

Paul gives two reasons, in the passages we just read above:

(1) "they pursued it not by faith but as as if it were by works;"

(2) they sought to "establish their own righteousness."

In other words, they tried to earn salvation by something which they themselves did in their own rightousness. As a result, those who did this never entered into God's salvation.

The same mistake which was made by Israel in Paul's day, is also being made today by millions of professing Christians around the world. There are countless sincere, well-meaning Christians everywhere who feel that they must do something to help earn their salvation. They devote themselves to such things as prayer, pentance, fasting, charity, self-denial, the careful observance of church ordinances, but all in vain! They never obtain true peace of heart and assurance of salvation because --- like Israel of old --- they seek it not by faith but by works. Such people go about to establish their own riighteousness, and in this way they fail to submit to the righteousness of God, which is by faith in Christ alone.

In EPHESIANS 2:8-9 Paul emphasizes the same truth when he tells Christians believers:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[yomotalking]

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OH NO, HERE WE GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Catholics don your riot gear and pick up your shields.........here come the rocks!

                                                           

Only teasing, Jake.   

It might actually be good to tackle this one again and try to clear the air.

But , right now I need to get to Mass.  Be back tonite.

It should be interesting.

I have only one very heartfelt request to all who post..............

I beg you please, say what YOU believe about this topic and refrain from telling me what I believe.  If you feel an urgent need to explain the "error" of what the Catholic Church teaches, then at least KNOW what it teaches first. 

Check a website. You can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on line.

Don't assume you know, and then begin to bash what you believe, in error , to be what the RCC holds as doctrine.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that there is no salvation apart from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Thanks and God lead you in this discussion.

Proceed...........................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thou art Catholic?

Why dost thou run from us?

Come hither, we shall help thee!

Never be afraid, thou shalt never be harmed.

Thou seest?

We help, sir, never hinder.

Yea, we at least hope we do.

Why doest thou barricade thyself, as if to war?>

Nay, thou shalt not be insulted!

Art we all Brothers and Sisters in Christ?

Yea...

YAYYYYYYYYYYYY

[Guest shiloh357]

There are countless sincere, well-meaning Christians everywhere who feel that they must do something to help earn their salvation. They devote themselves to such things as prayer, pentance, fasting, charity, self-denial, the careful observance of church ordinances, but all in vain!

It appears that you are assigning values and motives to other people's actions. It is possible that you misperceive their adherence to those things as an attempt to gain righteousness. Perhaps they see themselves as just expressing their devotion to God, and you are misjudging their actions. I admit, there have been sects who engage in those things out of a feeling that these are necessary for salvation, but I just don't see that kind of legalism being so widespread.

In fact this was the great mistake which Israel made, as Paul --- himself an Israelite --- explains in ROMANS 9:31-31 (NIV) he says:

But Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

And again in ROMANS 10:3 Paul says concerning Israel:

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

I see what you are saying and it is absolutely true. They tried to establish a standard of righteousness outside the prescribed standard, and the prescribed manner of attaining it outlined by God in the Tenach.

[Trust & Obey]

Works are what we do in response to our faith. We work because we believe.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

It appears that you are assigning values and motives to other people's actions. It is possible that you misperceive their adherence to those things as an attempt to gain righteousness. Perhaps they see themselves as just expressing their devotion to God, and you are misjudging their actions.

My Response:

That may be, and of course, that is possible. I could give you many examples for illustrate what I am talking about. However, I do not want to appear to be attacking certain groups or denominations, and I am going to try to avoid that and to try to stick as closely discussing Scripture on this topic as I can. Any way, I am going to rest for a while now, and give others a chance to express their veiws before I say much more at this point in this discussion.

Shiloh wrote:

I admit, there have been sects who engage in those things out of a feeling that these are necessary for salvation, but I just don't see that kind of legalism being so widespread.

My Response:

You can disagree with me about it, and still go the heaven.

That is, if you still love me you will. (smiling)

Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[nebula]

Nebula wrote:

Are we talking about salvation or Christian living?  I am feeling confused here.

For salvation is not merited on works.  However, Christian living does merit works - you know - producing fruit.  Jesus said that the trees that do not produce fruit are chopped down.

My Response:

What we are discussing is the relation between faith and works referred to in many passages of the New Testament. . . .

I shared this to help you to more understand what is being discussed.

I know we are talking about faith and works!

What is confusing me is that you are talking about Christians - people who are already saved - getting caught up in legalism . . .

Yet arguing about works having nothing to do with salvation.

So what does Christians following legalism have to do with

In order to obtain salvation by faith, the first thing any man must do is to stop "working" --- to stop trying to earn salvation.

So this is why I ask you what I did.

Why can't you answer this simply? Why must you be so vague and confusing and talking like you ore off in left field?

There are six great foundational doctrines of the Christian faith listed in Hebrews 6:1-2. The six doctrines listed there as the foundation of the doctrine of Christ are as follows:

1. Repentance from dead works

2. Faith toward God

3. The doctrine of baptisms'

4. Laying on of hands

5. Resurrection of the dead

6. Eternal Judgment

After coming to faith in Jesus, to have accepted Jesus as Lord, and as God our Savior. We must come to fully understand these six foundational truths of the Christian faith in order to be able to lay a sound doctrinal foundation in place after having come to biblical Christian faith according to my understanding.

It is nescessary that we come to fully understand the relation between faith and works to begin to undertand the first two foundational doctrines listed in above found in Hebrews 6:1-2. Notice I said to begin to fully understand the first two doctrines. And to come to understand the relation between faith and works is a nescessary part in being able to begin to fully understand the first two foundational doctrines.

We all agree that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Again, what does salvation by faith have to do with Christian living once saved?

I am going to ask you now a question to help you to join into this discussion that would relate to this discussion.

If you would just answer my questions simply. . . .

After more posts you will have not problem coming into the discussion and in more seeing what is being discussed.

Please stop treating me like I am ignorant of Scripture and Christian doctrine just because I can't talk philosophically as well as you do.

What was the great mistake that Israel made in attempting to achieve righteousness found in Scripture?

Is the same mistake Israel make in attempting to achieve righteousness also being made today by millions of professing Christians around the world?

If you believe that to be so? Why do you think that has happened?

I'm not sure I am following your train of thought with your questions - which is why I keep asking you questions for clarification - which for some reason you cannot seem to answer directly. (What's with that?)

You see, I prefer to get to the bottom line first - then understand why or how you got there.

So, I need to know the bottom line.

Are Christians too caught up with "don't drink, don't smoke, etc., etc." type of righteousness? Absolutely!

Are Christians too caught up with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control? Ha! Christians are not concerned about these things enough.

So, in your definition of works - is your understanding thinking of the drinking, smoking, music, eating, etc. etc. type of works - or the Gal. 5:22,23 fruit of the Spirit type?

Galatians 5

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 

15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

[nebula]

OK, since you asked me to ask these here:

Dear Jake -

what does love look like to you? By what standards could you tell love was being shown you? Others?

Are you concerned with actions, or the reason behind those actions? And if both, I need you to explain what your understanding of the actions are.

How do you love God? By . . . believing? Or by doing? If believing, how is love proven? If doing, by what actions then? How do you know your actions are love? What love is God looking for?

How do you love your neighbor? Feelings? Or doings? If feelings, how will your neighbor know you love him? If doing, by what doings will your neighbor know love has been given? By what standards do you follow?