Faith and Works

[EricH]

The real question here is do works in any way cause a person to be saved. Are they an agent that achieves our salvation in some way?

[Guest shiloh357]

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I don't know about you but these verses say that "I" must do these that "I" must prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

The stark contrast between you and I, is that you are trying to change your inner man. You are trying to "perfect" yourself in order that you might be worthy of eternal life. I have, through Christ, already attained perfection. My inner man no longer sins because it has been recreated in the image of Christ. My service to the Lord to offer up my body and mind to Him and to bring them into alignment with Word of God. It is my body and mind that need to changed, reformed. I do not have to work to earn or gain eternal life that I already have. I do not have to work to maintain it, or ensure it. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of my inheritance. You are trying to put your inner man on the altar as a living sacrifice, when God commands you to put your body on the altar. You are offering the wrong sacrifice on the altar.

I am sorry that you have to work so hard. If you would only trust Christ, you could live as I live. Like I said, to believe you, would require me to go backwards. I have eternal life. I am not going to start earning what I already have.

We have three people in the bible - King Saul, King Solomon, Judas, and Demas. These were all people of God who turned their backs on God and perished. How can you say that they were never saved at one time when the bible says they were?

Those are not examples of three people who are saved and then lost. Saul was never a righteous man. His jealousy of David only brought out his true colors. Solomon is also never listed among the righteous in Scripture, but is known for his supernatural wisdom and riches. In fact, Solomon was very hard on the people and taxed them too heavily to accomplish His agenda.

Nowhere does it say that Demas lost his salvation. He simply did not continue with Paul in His missionary journeys. It does not say that Demas went and lived in sin.

Judas was never a righteous person. He was a demon from the beginning. Judas was a thief. Given Peter's temperament, he would have killed Judas if he had known what Judas really was.

"Yes, but I exegete them better than you".

Now that is an arrogant statment.

No, it is a true statement. You know just enough about exegesis to be dangerous, as is evident by the poor quality of Bible interepretation skills you continue to display,.

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. (KJV)

If understanding serves my right, don't servants do what their masters command them to do? Because this servant did what he was TOLD he was able to enter into the joy of the Lord.

And this is what happened to the servant that did not please his Lord:

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These are rewards for what was required of the servants. We are the servants of God and Christ and by their mercy and grace are called unto repentance and good works. If we choose not to obey we have eternal damnation to look forward to, but if we repent and accept the grace offered to us and abide in the doctrine by obeying it we will recieve eternal salvation.

the part you are missing in that parable is that the disobedient servant does not represent a disobedient Christian but an unbeliever. You can tell that from the type of relationship the servant had with the master.

So you are saying that it is impossible to turn your back on God and walk with him no more like most of Christ's disciples did?

Those were disciples, not Christians. Totally different.

[John3;16]

Genesis|4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Genesis|4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Genesis|4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Genesis|4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen?

Genesis|4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee

[Guest shiloh357]

The stark contrast between you and I, is that you are trying to change your inner man. You are trying to "perfect" yourself in order that you might be worthy of eternal life.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

What was that again about perfection?

That is talking about spiritual maturity. Those offices were given to the Church to help us grow spirtually. Perfection is used in the sense of helping to mature the saint. It is not using "perfection" in the sense of flawlessness. Furthermore, it is speaking corporately of the body of Christ, and not about individuals. You need learn how to study.

2 Corinthians 5:9[/] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you please tell my this verse say I must LABOUR to be accepted by Christ? And why are we going to be judged to recieve for the things we have done in this body?

This is talking about the judgement of Christians to determine their reward, not to determine if they are saved. Christians are judged on the basis of service and are rewarded accordingly. You are confusing THIS judgement with the great white throne judgement. I am not surprised. You consistently confuse word meanings and rip verses out of context in order to apply your own heretical, incompetent interpretations.

Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

You mean to tell me that I have to walk worthy of the Lord being gruitful in every good work?

yes, but not in order to be saved. Walking worthy of the Lord should be a product of who you are in Christ, not an attempt to earn your way into heaven.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, for by grace we are saved, but that grace reigns through our righteousness. In essence I will lose that grace if I don't stay righteous.

You can't "stay" righteous by works. Works were not good enough to make you righteous to start with. Furthermore, NONE of is righteous. We are "declared" righteous, but none of us is truly righteous, and will not be until the we go to be with the Lord. Righteousness is only imputed (credited) to us for future withdraw. It is not infused in us at this time. So you are trying to stay righteous, when you are not righteous at all.

Remeber, Shiloh, we will be judged by ALL of the verses contained in the 27 books of the New Testement. You are picking out certain ones and basing your belief on that. When I try to tell you it is more than that because you are leaving out certain verses you accuse me of not having correct understanding.

Baloney... I am consistently addressing you verse for verse, and showing that you really don't know how to interpret Scripture other than your ignorant face-value overly simplistic means of interpretation. There are rules of interpretation called hermenuetics and you consistently violate them every time you post. You don't know how to study the Bible, and it shows. You have no business trying to tell anyone what the Bible says.

If that were true then you would have told me about the verse mention we have to labour to be accepted, instead you accuse me of "working for my salvation". Your understanding and the verses of scritpure are in complete contradiction.

You by your own admission claim to be working for your salvation. You have already stated that getting saved does not mean heaven is ours, right now. You have to work to maintain salvation, therefore you are working for it. I have already answered numerous times what these verses mean. You have no right to say that I have ignored anything. You just don't bother to read all I have written.

[Ovedya]

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, for by grace we are saved, but that grace reigns through our righteousness. In essence I will lose that grace if I don't stay righteous.

Cardcaptor,

I do not see that the author of the verse you quoted inserted a "but" into the equation, so why did you? Not only have you added something to the verse that is not there, you are making the verse say something that it does not.

Essentially the verse is saying that grace reigns through righteousness...by Jesus Christ our Lord. That means that Jesus Christ our Lord is our source of righteousness through which grace reigns. These facts are confirmed by several other verses, not the least of which are: Romans 3:22; 5:21; 8:10; 1 Cor. 1:30; Phil. 1:11; 3:9, and 2 Pet. 1:1.

These verses confirm the fact that the righteousness imparted to the believers is that of God alone, and not that of any work - either according to the law or according to man. God's gift of righteousness is given to the believers according to grace (Rom. 5:17), and it is sustained by the One through whom God's righteousness and grace are allotted. Jesus Christ is the righteous One (Acts 3:14; 7:52; 22:14; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1 John 2:1). It is He alone that is worthy of God's favor, and it is by this One that God's beloved are chosen (Eph. 1:4), redeemed (Col. 1:4), justified (Rom. 3:24), sanctified (Heb. 2:11), transformed (2 Cor. 3:18), and conformed to His glorious image (Rom. 8:29); and it is because of this One that God's people have become heirs of God's heavenly kingdom, the eventual redemption of our bodies, and life eternal (Rom. 8:17; 23; 5:21).

Therefore the righteousness that we keep is the righteousness of God in Christ jesus, through faith (Rom. 3:22). We are no longer therefore lawkeepers, we are "Christkeepers." If we have believed into Christ Jesus, the righteousness of God has become our righteousness, and through the continual operation of faith in the believer, grace is able to reign. It is not of any work or effort on the part of the believer that causes, sustains, or guarantees his inheritance of the kingdom of God. Since everything in the kingdom absolutely hinges upon the single, unique, and final redemptive work of Jesus Christ, the only single important factor in the life of the believer is faith in Him, in His work, in His accomplished redemption, and hope in the reward of the kingdom (cf. Heb. 11:1; Heb. 3:6; 6:11; 7:19; 10:23; 1 Pet. 1:3).

Now, the life lived out of faith has an expression, just as every other other life has an expression. Naturally, therefore, we would expect that those of the new creation - those that live according to faith - would express the divine virtues of the eternal life given to them through faith in Jesus Christ. Practically speaking, the expression of God's divine virtues is in something that we term "good works." However, it is not the good works of themselves, or the action of committing good works that ultimately save a believer. In fact, there is not as much as a single verse that emphatically states that the commission of good works is a sustaining factor or a guarantee of eternal salvation. If this were so - if works of any type were able to save man - than there would have been no need whatsoever for Christ's incarnation, death, resurrection, or ascension. (Gal. 2:21; 3:20).

Please mediatate on these things.

Grace to you,

~O

[RGR]

Shiloh

You make the claims that you do about my understanding of the scriptures because they don't support you "grace/faith" only doctrine.

The bottom point is on the "great white throne" judgment day we will be judged by the 27 books of the old testement. We will be judged by how faithful we were to the doctrine of Christ and if we really followed it. If I didn't then I don't merit heaven.

Yes, Christ will judge us here accoring his "judgment seat", but I can also be found unworthy here while still on earth for walking contrary to the doctrine of Christ and be rejected by Christ.

The first 3 Chapters of Revelation are speaking to the Churches and its members. Christ found all three unworthy and told them to repent or he would spew them out of his mouth.

Demas was a Christian who left Paul for the love of this present world and Christ said that if I love father, mother, sister, etc more than him then I am not worthy of him.

I generally stay away from these type of arguments due to the fact that they produce bickering and squabbling many times. I do feel compelled, however, to add my $.02 worth!

First of all, I DO NOT believe in eternal security. I do believe that one can turn their back on God and walk away from the Christian faith IF THEY DESIRE TO DO SO. I'm not going to argue that point. On the other hand, I don't believe God is some monster waiting and watching for me to trip up where that He can take my salvation away from me. I fear that is the thing you are teaching.

Second of all, Christians will have no part in the Great White Throne Judgement. In essence you are saying that Christ will rapture all who call themselves Christian, allow them entrance to Heaven, and then 7 years later cast that person into Hell at the Great White Throne Judgement. Those whom the Bible speaks of trying to beg their way out of Hell in saying they've done marvelous deeds, IMO, are hypocrites who probably played the game of trying to be a Christian to fool someone but they won't fool Christ. I would even concede, as it is I don't believe in OSAS, that possibly these are those who wandered from the faith by choice. However these are NOT bloodwashed, redeemed children of God that are being talked about.

Third of all, according to you, we would be judged only by the OT, so why not with the NT as well? How can I be judged by a law that does not apply to me? I'm in bad shape if I'm being judged by the OT since I just added pork sausage to my chilli and OT dietary restrictions tell me no pork, lol! I also love the convenience of my permanent press shirts but according to OT law I can't wear mixed fiber garments! I guess a lot of us are in trouble, huh?

Edited December 29, 2005 by Ronald

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh

You make the claims that you do about my understanding of the scriptures because they don't support you "grace/faith" only doctrine.

No, I say those things because as Ovedya just pointed out, you add words to the Scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean. You are reading your belief into the Scriptures and you misapply them outside the context and you do a lot of violence to the Scriptures when you treat them that way. You completely mishandle and mistinterpret every verse to make it mean what you want, and you completely ignore grammar, syntax, context, Greek, Hebrew, and every rule of hermeneutics there is. That is the only way you can put out your wacky "doctrine."

By the way, as I have pointed out, I don't have a "grace/faith only" doctrine. I have a "Christ only" doctrine. I trust Christ, you don't. You do not practice Christianity but are more like the Pharisees who thought that their works were what made them righteous in God's eyes. We both know where they are now.

The bottom point is on the "great white throne" judgment day we will be judged by the 27 books of the old testement. We will be judged by how faithful we were to the doctrine of Christ and if we really followed it. If I didn't then I don't merit heaven.

YOU might be at the great white throne, but I will be at the judgement seat of Christ. I will not be at the great white throne. I am saved, and the Bible says I am. I already know where I am spending eternity. You don't really know where you will end up. Thank God I don't have to live like you. I know that my eternal home is waiting for me, and I know that if I died tonight I would be with Jesus. You don't have that assurance.

The first 3 Chapters of Revelation are speaking to the Churches and its members. Christ found all three unworthy and told them to repent or he would spew them out of his mouth.

It is written to the Pastors of those churches. And he did not tell all of the churches that He would spew them out of His mouth. That is just you adding to the Bible again.

Demas was a Christian who left Paul for the love of this present world and Christ said that if I love father, mother, sister, etc more than him then I am not worthy of him.

None of us are worthy of Him, even if we are serving Him. Here again you are trying to take two unrelated passages and fuse them together to support your silly ideas.

It does not mean that Demas had become worldly and covetous of earthy, sinful pleasures. What it means is that Demas was not willing to subject himself to the same probability of martyrdom that Paul undoubtedly faced. Demas is not held up as a worldly man, but as a man who desired to live, and did not want to risk the loss of his life. Again, you have to work awfully hard given the very scant mentionings of Demas, to conclude that he went into sin and lost his salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

That is talking about spiritual maturity. Those offices were given to the Church to help us grow spirtually. Perfection is used in the sense of helping to mature the saint. It is not using "perfection" in the sense of flawlessness. Furthermore, it is speaking corporately of the body of Christ, and not about individuals. You need learn how to study.

What then is spiritual maturity? As I grow in Christianity to what am I growing to be?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I'm trying to be perfect because Christ said to be perfect, or don't you believe the verses of scripture?

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Are these verses speaking of the same "Spiritual maturity"?

If you are trying to treat the term as flawlessness, then the answer is no. It is not talking about perfection in terms of degree, but in terms of quality. Furthermore, if you apply that word to its context. He is talking about being perfect in love. The word "perfect" is used here of being complete, of using God Himself as the goal or example of perfect love, and we are being commanded to imitate Him. He was not telling them to live in sinless perfection. That is not the point being made at all in this passage, at all.

As for Col. 1:28, it is the same word used in Matthew. It means that Paul wanted to present as many people as possible to the Lord as Spiritually mature, ripened believers. These are people who are complete, and whole in Christ.

You mean to tell me that I have to walk worthy of the Lord being gruitful in every good work?

yes, but not in order to be saved. Walking worthy of the Lord should be a product of who you are in Christ, not an attempt to earn your way into heaven.

Then what am I in Christ other than obedient or disobedient. If I am obedient then I am walking worthy of him.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

You mean that we actually go through persecutions and tribulations that we MAY be counted worthy of the Kingdom Of God? I don't know about you but this looks like a stipulation.

This is not saying that Christians will merit heaven by their suffering. "Counted worthy" means to be fit for, or becoming. We are to show through patience in tribulation, lives as becoming those who are inheriting the Kingdom; that we are fit to receive this inheritance.

You can't "stay" righteous by works. Works were not good enough to make you righteous to start with. Furthermore, NONE of is righteous. We are "declared" righteous, but none of us is truly righteous, and will not be until the we go to be with the Lord. Righteousness is only imputed (credited) to us for future withdraw. It is not infused in us at this time. So you are trying to stay righteous, when you are not righteous at all.

Then I guess you have never read these scriptures:

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

So, if none of us are truly righteous then we are not born of him. The scripture says that I am righteous WHEN I DO righteousness NOT when it is imputed.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In all three verses, John is simply laying out an important way for us to know the difference between true and false professions of faith. John is not saying that we merit salvation by "doing righteousness."

One thing to keep in mind, is that back then, even as today, there are many who profess Christ but live lives that are contrary to the faith they claim to possess. John is talking about how to tell the difference between the true Christians and the fake Christians. John is hitting on the same theme as found in James 2, namely that those whose lives match their profession are the true believers. We will know who the righteous are, because they will do righteousness. They will live according to commandments of God. That is all that John is saying. To apply this as saying that he that does righteousness merits righteousness is heretical.

The Scripture does not say you are righteous because you do righteousness. It says that you do righteousness because you have been born again and regenerated in order to facilitate living a righteous life. You are righteous in God's eyes, ONLY because of what Jesus did on the cross, and His righteousness was imputed to you.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh

Herein is your problem:

Walking worthy of the Lord should be a product of who you are in Christ, not an attempt to earn your way into heaven.

You keep misquoting me in what is being said. I am NOT contending nor conveying earning your salvation. You are the one that keeps imputing that understanding.

I am sorry, but you are the one who doesn't get it.

By thinking that you have to maintain your salvation with good works, by thinking that you have to live up to particular standard or else you will forfeit eternal life, you are trying to earn it.

Even if you don't believe that salvation is initially attained by works, but has to be maintained by good works, you teaching a works-based salvation, and thus salvation is ultimately resting on you, and not on God. You cannot wiggle out of the very logic you have been touting these last few days.

Remember, we will be judged by our works. If I have no works then how will I be judged?

Remember, here it comes again. Works DO NOT save us. We are NOT earning our way to heaven

Who said anything about not having works??? Who said you will not be judged by works??? I never said that.

What I am saying that is that your works as a Christian will be judged to determine the degree of your reward, not to determine if you are saved.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (of Judgement) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

This is the point that you keep missing with me. Since you have already admitted you don't believe in OSAS (I'm so proud of you), we can also loose our salvation through a lack of works. Since our works is our obedience then it is saying that we will lose our salvation through our lack of obedience.

No... I said that I am not pure OSASer. I believe that if a person wants to, they can kick against the goads and apostasize, but only after the Holy Spirit has exhausted every means of reaching out to them. That is not the same "losing your salvation." Works did not save, and the lack of works will not damn you to hell. Lack of works will however destroy your reward. Lack of works will disqualify you for service in the Kingdom.

[Guest shiloh357]

Do you have scriptural proof that there are different degrees of rewards for our works?

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. (1 Corinthians 3:8)

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (of Judgement) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)

Our works will be tested by fire. That which remains, and is not burnt up determines the degree of reward. There will be believers who will have less burnt up, less wood, hay and stubble. Some will have more. We are rewarded on that basis, according to what remains.

Counld you please tell me what our rewards are and what our service in the kingdom is? Especially since we can lose it.

Our service in the Kingdom at this time to reach the lost. Everything we do, all of our good works should be to advance that agenda. All other matters are subordinate to the interests of Kingdom. Our good works are not for our benefit, but to make us a light.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

As far as what the rewards are, they are referred to as crowns. Crown of righteousness, crown of life, crown of glory, etc. They represent honor. There will be varying degrees of honor bestowed upon believers. Some will have more honor than others, because some were more faithful, and not as lazy.