Faith and Works

[Jake for Jesus]

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEECH . . . .

Shiloh, appreciate your wisdom and insight!

I'm glad your here!

Edited September 28, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Fiosh]

Fiosh wrote:

I have a suggestion.

[Jake for Jesus]

Fiosh wrote:

Hi Jake, Here's an example of what I referred to . The passage speaks of "righteousness"; you then use it to address salvation.

That's why I asked for your definitions----which you still have not provided. (unless I missed it).

You wrote for example, in ROMANS 4:4-5 he says:

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Notice the phrase "to him who does not work but believes."

In order to obtain salvation by faith, the first thing any man must do is to stop "working" ---- to stop trying to earn salvation.

Salvation comes through faith alone, through doing nothing but believing. So long as a man tries to do anything whatever to earn salvation, he cannot experience the salvation of God which is received by faith alone.

My Response:

Fiosh --- thank you for your post.

For a closer look at that verse open with me please, to ROMANS 4:2-6, and let's see more of what saint Paul had to say.

For if Arabram was justified by works he has something to boost about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say?

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt.

But to him who does not not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also decribes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works;

In verse 2 above we just read that Paul says, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."

Paul's agrument is that Abraham was not justified by works or obedience to the Law. Now if you were to read the statement of James in James 2:21. James says Abraham was "justified by works" and uses the word "justified" in a different sense, not meaning "declared to be rigteous" by God (as here), but rather "shown" outwardly" to be righteous" (The word can take both meanings).

Paul and James agree that Abraham's initial salvation came by works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), but that later in his life evidence of salvation came by his works (Genesis 22:9; James 2:21) and so it is with us today.

Let's now look again at verse 6, we read just read above.

Here Paul says, "just as David also describes the blessedness of man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works."

I would like to draw your attention to the word imputes in that passage.

God imparts righteousness to those who believe.

The same Greek word occurs in verses 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 22, 23, and 24, in this same chapter of Romans, and is sometimes translated by different English words, such as "accounted" or "reckoned."

I share this only to try to bring more understanding of what Paul was talking about in the passage, you had asked about based on my understanding.

Respectfully,

Jacob

Edited September 28, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Fiosh]

Fiosh wrote:

Hi Jake, Here's an example of what I referred to .  The passage speaks of "righteousness"; you then use it to address salvation.

That's why I asked for your definitions----which you still have not provided. (unless I missed it).

You wrote for example, in ROMANS 4:4-5 he says:

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Notice the phrase "to him who does not work but believes."

In order to obtain salvation by faith, the first thing any man must do is to stop "working" ---- to stop trying to earn salvation.

Salvation comes through faith alone, through doing nothing but believing. So long as a man tries to do anything whatever to earn salvation, he cannot experience the salvation of God which is received by faith alone.

My Response:

Fiosh --- thank you for your post.

For a closer look at that verse open with me please, to ROMANS 4:2-6, and let's see more of what saint Paul had to say.

For if Arabram was justified by works he has something to boost about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say?

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt.

But to him whp does not not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also decribes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works;

In verse 2 above we just read that Paul says, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."

Paul's agrument is that Abraham was not justified by works or obedience to the Law. Now if you were to read the statement of James in James 2:21. James says Abraham was "justified by works" and uses the word "justified" in a different sense, not meaning "declared to be rigteous" by God (as here), but rather "shown" outwardly" to be righteous" (The word can take both meanings).

Paul and James agree that Abraham's initial salvation came by works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), but that later in his life evidence of salvation came by his works (Genesis 22:9; James 2:21) and so it is with us today.

Let's now look again at verse 6, we read just read above.

Here Paul says, "just as David also describes the blessedness of man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works."

I would like to draw your attention to the word imputes in that passage.

God imparts righteousness to those who believe.

The same Greek word occurs in verses 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 22, 23, and 24, in this same chapter of Romans, and is sometimes translated by different English words, such as "accounted" or "reckoned."

I share this only to try to bring more understanding of what Paul was talking about in the passage, you had asked about based on my understanding.

Respectfully,

Jacob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Jake,

I'm not arguing with you.

I'm only pointing out that the passage adresses Righteousness; you used it to address salvation.

You did not mention that issue, which was the focus of my post, in your reply.

Thank you,

Fiosh

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm only pointing out that the passage adresses Righteousness; you used it to address salvation.

But that is what salvation is. The essence of salvation is being declared righteous.

[RGR]

Shiloh wrote:

He thinks he is teaching us all something that we don't know.

My Response:

I am sorry, that you have that kind of attitude.

On the other hand, upon first coming to this bulletion board. Someone here had privately told me that you have set yourself up as a teacher here, and that you tend to not to be able to tolerate the views of others, that may be different from your own. Therefore this comes as no surprise to me.

Finally, I want to say, that this is the last time I will respond to a post or posts of this nature. If you want to discuss the Bible. I have interest in that. But not in discussions of a personal nature that leads to strife.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jake,

You're the one with the attitude, not Shiloh! Second off all, what someone told you in private should be kept that way-PRIVATE!!!!!!!! And it also seems to me that you're the one looking for strife. I've watched Shiloh long enough to know that he doesn't go around looking for strife, but some people automatically jump to that conclusion when they stand corrected. The Apostle Paul ruffled some feathers before and was accused of false things by those who didn't like him as well! In short, for my money, you're the one with the attitude and attitudes don't last long around here.

[Jake for Jesus]

Fiosh wrote:

Hi Jake, I'm not arguing with you.

My Response:

Thank you for your post!

If you were to disagree, it would be okay to disagree.

As far as I know we are allowed to disagree here.

That is, if we were to disagree. (smiling)

Fiosh wrote:

I'm only pointing out that the passage addresses Righteousness; you used it to address salvation. You did not mention that issue, which was the focus of my post, in your reply.

My Response:

No problem, I understand.

What is your understanding of justification?

What does it mean to you?

How are we justified?

Respectfully,

Jacob

Edited September 28, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[nebula]

It's hard to follow a discussion when someone is asked a directed question, and he answers bvack vaguely - you wonder if he's trying to avoid the question. If so - why.

I don't know about you all, but I have no idea what point Jake is trying to make.

Salvation is through faith, not works. We all agree with that.

So what are we debating over?

[Smalcald]

This topic seems to never end.

But all we have to do is read Galatians; there is no need to go beyond that, it is clear, faith alone.

But a more interesting topic is why this topic gets us going so much? I think it is because we can see works, works are what are visible, they impact us and our world, while faith itself is a spiritual act of the Holy Spirit, which we cannot see, it is not visible, and human beings like to see what is going on! Also the two are connected in a mysterious way, true faith does produce good works.

We all agree true faith produces the fruits of faith, good works. But the problem is we are not given specifics, how many works will faith produce, how much faith produces how many works, how can we tell if someone has true faith? This is what bugs us I think it is our need to judge others, without works we can't judge other people. I think it bugs us when we see an unrepentant open sinner say, I have faith thus I am saved. Yet we should not be bugged by that, we may not fellowship with this person as Paul tells us, but we cannot judge her salvation or her faith, and I think we want to, which when you think of it is a horrible burden. We can thank God we are free of that burden.

[Guest shiloh357]

We all agree true faith produces the fruits of faith, good works. But the problem is we are not given specifics, how many works will faith produce, how much faith produces how many works, how can we tell if someone has true faith? This is what bugs us I think it is our need to judge others, without works we can't judge other people.

We have all the specifics we need. There are those who genuinely believe that a synthesis of works and faith are required. We used to have a false teacher who claimed that we are saved by grace through faith in order that we would perform the good works we needed to get to heaven. In his view, salvation is not a present day possession of the believer. John 5:24, and 1 John 5:11-13 tell us that we, who are believers, have eternal life right now. We have a "know-so" salvation. Those who believe that works must accompany salvation believe that salvation is a conditional promise that we must continuously keep working toward.

I think it is less a need to judge others, and more like a need to wallow in self-righteousness. There are still people who want to believe that they have something to do with either getting saved, or maintaining it.

It is really so simple, that I don't see where any debate should exist. We are saved by faith, and our works are a product of a living faith. Our works are a demonstration of the principles of grace that were implanted in us when we were born again. Our works should make us a showcase of God's grace and mercy.