Genesis 2:11 The Garden of Eden's Location

[JohnR7]

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

As I said, the NAME of the tree - the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - is simply an IRONY. If there had never been the "wrong," the "sin" - the introduction of "evil" into the human race, they (and we) would never have known what "evil" was! As soon as they disobeyed God by eating the fruit forbidden to them, they KNEW the difference between "Good" - GOD - and "Evil" - themselves! So, it no longer matters what the fruit was, evil has been introduced into the world, and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." That is now the inheritance from Adam and Chavah ("Eve") passed on to every person in Adam's race!

Which is why Joseph Smith and Calvin say God wanted them to disobey and eat the forbidden fruit. That contradicts all the Bible that tells us we should follow the commandments of God and live in obedience to Him. Not for His sake, but for our sake, so that life goes well for us. Because we are told, God only wants the very best for us without compromise. 

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, JohnR7 said:

Which is why Joseph Smith and Calvin say God wanted them to disobey and eat the forbidden fruit. That contradicts all the Bible that tells us we should follow the commandments of God and live in obedience to Him. Not for His sake, but for our sake, so that life goes well for us. Because we are told, God only wants the very best for us without compromise. 

Yes, they forgot an important Scripture passage:

Romans 6:1-7 (KJV)

1 What shall we say then? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound"? 2 God forbid. (Greek: Mee genoito! = "NOT may-it-be!" = "May it NEVER be!") How shall we, that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN.

[BeyondET]

On 10/16/2022 at 10:04 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET

I got to thinking and you could see it this way: Man couldn't come to the garden any more; so, the garden came to the man!

Yeah, God could have kept the garden intact, but to what purpose? It's not His way to hoard a valuable. He would share the goodness with the world! He just wouldn't allow the species of the Tree of Life to escape His plan. 

It was a CONTEST of sorts! If you'll notice, God told man not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but He didn't tell Him anything about the Tree of Life. He only said,

Genesis 2:15-17 (KJV)

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

So, they were to eat from every tree of the garden, other than the one. And, if they could have obeyed God until they had eaten from every tree, they would have eventually come to eat of the Tree of Life!

When they were expelled from the garden, the reason why is enlightening:

Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV)

22 And the LORD God said,

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ...": 

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Apparently, the thought was too horrible to continue!

Well I think just like today there are species of trees that only grow in one area on earth. God created the garden with trees in only that area. Most of those species of trees are extinct.

Edited October 20, 2022 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

On 10/20/2022 at 2:13 AM, BeyondET said:

Well I think just like today there are species of trees that only grow in one area on earth. God created the garden with trees in only that area. Most of those species of trees are extinct.

Shalom, BeyondET.

You could be right; after all, some trees are more adapted to the deserts than others. Many tree species thrive in the jungles of the world that wouldn't survive anywhere else.

And, yes, trees, like animals, can go extinct. All we can know for sure is what God has revealed for us. And, we know that the Tree of Life will exist within the New Jerusalem that will land upon this earth after it has been purged with fire.

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BeyondET.

You could be right; after all, some trees are more adapted to the deserts than others. Many tree species thrive in the jungles of the world that wouldn't survive anywhere else.

And, yes, trees, like animals, can go extinct. All we can know for sure is what God has revealed for us. And, we know that the Tree of Life will exist within the New Jerusalem that will land upon this earth after it has been purged with fire.

Indeed the Tree of life, not one but two on each side of the river of life.

 

Trees do go extinct one that comes to mind recently 1994 was the Saint Helena Olive. A clipping off the last known tree did survive til 1999 but it died from fungus totally extinct from that point on.

Edited October 22, 2022 by BeyondET

[Who me]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:29 PM, JohnR7 said:

Which is why Joseph Smith and Calvin say God wanted them to disobey and eat the forbidden fruit.

 

Sorry there you are wrong.

 

Yes joseph smith said that, but his believes are not Christian.

If you think Calvin said that, please supply your evidence.

[Who me]

On 8/31/2022 at 5:56 AM, JohnR7 said:

The Bible talks about the Tigris and Euphrates river, and also we know that Ancient Mesopotamia and Sumeria were in the Euphrates river valley. Today we have space satellites we can study to see the dried up rivers that Moses tells us about.

How is it possible for rivers to flow in the same geographic location following a global flood that destroyed the world.

 

Take a look at America, at Australia and New Zealand.  To your great surprise you will find places named after the countries and towns left behind when those places were colonised.

 

Following the global flood Noah's descendants named a least two great rivers after rivers in their history.

 

We will never find where Eden was.

 

If it where possible do you think the cherubim would let you in?

[JohnR7]

39 minutes ago, Who me said:

How is it possible for rivers to flow in the same geographic location following a global flood that destroyed the world.

We live on a river here that is in the same place after the glaciers as it was before. Although I have been told the river was wider before. I have photos of layers of conglomerate rock made by the river over the years. This river does flow in both directions. It is U shaped and both directions are down hill. 

My son and I used to go to explore the area where they used to cross the river before they built bridges. That could very well go back to Pangaea. Elevation changes because the plates run into each other. 

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Who me said:

How is it possible for rivers to flow in the same geographic location following a global flood that destroyed the world.

Shalom, Who me.

I believe that the antediluvian society was much more savvy than most give them credit. Did you know, for instance, that the Arabs call the Great Pyramid of Giza, "Enoch's Pillar," referring to the "seventh from Adam"?

Wikipedia tells us,

"Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Battutah (Arabic: أَبُو عَبْد الله مُحَمَّد اِبْن عَبْد الله اللَّوَاتِيّ الطَّنْجِيّ اِبْن بَطُّوطَة, romanized: ʾAbū ʿAbd Allāh Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh al-Lawātiyy aṭ-Ṭanjiyy ibn Baṭṭūṭah, /ˌɪbən bætˈtuːtɑː/; 24 February 1304 – 1368/1369),[a] commonly known as Ibn Battuta, was a Berber Maghrebi[1][2][3] scholar and explorer who travelled extensively in the lands of Afro-Eurasia, largely in the Muslim world, travelling more than any other explorer in pre-modern history, totalling around 117,000 km (73,000 mi), surpassing Zheng He with about 50,000 km (31,000 mi) and Marco Polo with 24,000 km (15,000 mi).[4][5][6] Over a period of thirty years, Ibn Battuta visited most of southern Eurasia, including Central Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia, China, and the Iberian Peninsula. Near the end of his life, he dictated an account of his journeys, titled A Gift to Those Who Contemplate the Wonders of Cities and the Marvels of Travelling, but commonly known as The Rihla."

Ibn Battutah said that the Great Pyramid (of Cheops or Khufu) used to be called "Enoch's Pillar." "Somebody" (who?) I once read said that the outer casing blocks of limestone, at least at the base of the Great Pyramid, were once painted with red lettering. Most say that it was just polished, white limestone. The same source said that there was a lesser, inferior building of red brick painted with white lettering. (I'm still trying to retrieve that source.)

Found it (or found one like it). It was by Joseph A Seiss who wrote A Miracle in Stone: The Great Pyramid (1877), who wrote ...

'The Jews up to the Saviour's time had a cherished tradition that this Pyramid was built before the flood. Josephus, the learned scribe, gives it as historic fact that Seth and his immediate descendants "were the inventors of that peculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies and their order. And that their inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed, they made two pillars, the one of brick, the other of stone. They inscribed their discoveries on them both, that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain and exhibit these discoveries to mankind." He also adds, "Now this (pillar) remains in the land of Siriad (Egypt) to this day." (Jewish Antiquities, i, 2.) Such an idea so strongly rooted in the mind of God's chosen people is very noteworthy, to say the least.' - p. 172

He continues ...

p. 173

The Arabians had a corresponding tradition. In a manuscript (preserved in the Bodleian Library, and translated by Dr. Sprenger) Abou Balkhi says, "The wise men previous to the flood, foreseeing an impending judgment from heaven, either by submersion or by fire, which would destroy every created thing, built upon the tops of the mountains in Upper Egypt many pyramids of stone, in order to have some refuge against the approaching calamity. Two of these buildings exceeded the rest in height, being four hundred cubits high, and as many broad, and as many long. They were built with large blocks of marble, and they were so well put together that the joints were scarcely perceptible. Upon the exterior of the building every charm and wonder of physic was inscribed."

Massoudi, another Arab writer, gives the same even more circumstantially, and says that on the eastern or Great Pyramid as built by these ancients the heavenly spheres were inscribed, "likewise the positions of the stars and their circles, together with the history and chronicles of time past, of that which is to come, and of every future event."

Another Arabic fragment, claiming to be a translation from an ancient Coptic papyrus,

p. 174

gives a similar account of the origin of the pyramids, and states that "innumerable precious things" were treasured in these buildings, including "the mysteries of science, astronomy, geometry, physic, and much useful knowledge."

Much more is written and one may find it at sacred-texts.com. Whether Enoch had anything to do with the actual building of the Great Pyramid, he may have at least given the means by which to build it to the descendants of Noach, his own descendants, as well. While there are many theories as to how the Egyptians built the pyramids, we're still scratching our heads about their actual construction.

21 hours ago, Who me said:

Take a look at America, at Australia and New Zealand.  To your great surprise you will find places named after the countries and towns left behind when those places were colonised.

Yes, but we never had such a HUGE amount of terraforming! Still, I believe that the world before the Flood had some sort of global positioning system (by star positions?) to tell approximately where the old landmarks, such as rivers and mountains, used to be located before the Flood.

21 hours ago, Who me said:

Following the global flood Noah's descendants named a least two great rivers after rivers in their history.

 

We will never find where Eden was.

 

If it where possible do you think the cherubim would let you in?

Funny! My dad, who used to be an independent Baptist preacher, used to teach that the species of the Tree of Life was transplanted to the New Jerusalem, currently still under construction, just before the Flood occurred.

But, IF one could find the Garden of Eden today, and IF the Tree of Life was still one of its trees, then the k'ruViym (cherubim) would probably NOT allow anyone in!

Edited October 23, 2022 by Retrobyter
to mark some quotes & fix a spelling error

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Indeed the Tree of life, not one but two on each side of the river of life.

 

Trees do go extinct one that comes to mind recently 1994 was the Saint Helena Olive. A clipping off the last known tree did survive til 1999 but it died from fungus totally extinct from that point on.

Shalom, BeyondET.

Actually, the Tree of Life is a SPECIES of tree, not a single tree or even just two. It is found THROUGHOUT the New Jerusalem, and on every level the River of the Water of Life flows, assuming that the river and the trees follow the street.

As my avatar shows, I believe that the "foundations of the wall of the city" are separated by sections of the Holy City, each a level of the city! It is part of the walls that are "great and high," and the "144 cubits" (or 72 yards) are merely the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly as seen at the gates! Judging from the height of the city being 1,379.868686... miles high and that there are therefore 12 sections of the city vertically, and assuming that these sections are all the same size, then each of these levels of the city would be 115 miles from the floor of one level to the floor of the next level above it. Thus, the building area of that level of the city would be 115 miles high less the height of the foundation between the two levels.

Now, I represent this city as a pyramid, because I believe that the Great Pyramid of Giza is a scale model of the city! I also believe that there are many good reasons for it to be in the shape of a pyramid rather than a cube, the least of which notwithstanding would be that the River of the Water of Life is said to flow "OUT OF" the Throne of God and of the Lamb, flow throughout the city along the street of the city, and presumably exit the city through its gates onto the surface of the New Earth.

Revelation 21:10-22:5 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (out of the sky) from God, 11 Having the glory (brightness) of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone (blood-red), clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare (sits on a square plot), and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper (blood-red stone): and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The street of the city - the roadwork of the city - will be constructed with two halves of the street on either side of the park with the river in the middle of the park and the trees of the Tree of Life species being on both sides of the river, along its banks.

So, one has ...
1/2 street - 1/2 park with Trees - River - 1/2 park with Trees - 1/2 street.

One should NOT forget (or neglect) that the word "paradise" is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "paradeisos" and of the Hebrew word "pardeec" (pronounced "par-dace'"). The words are said to mean this:

3857 paradeisos παράδεισος, ου, ὁ (par-ad'-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
-- paradise.

6508 pardeec פַרְדֵּס (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park:
-- forest, orchard.

And, what do we read Yeeshuwa` said about this word to the angel ("messenger"; pastor) of the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:7?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Anyway, that's where the Tree of Life is to be found now.