Speaking of Penguins

[Kabowd]

I wonder how someone would feel reading this thread if they struggled with homosexuality. Now, I'm completely against the lifestyle and believe it is a sin, but it breaks my heart to hear a certain group of ppl defined and mocked because of their sin. Are those who practice homosexuality defiling themselves? Yes. Are they sinful? Yes. But so am I. I disobey authority almost on a daily basis, either in deed or by my attitude. Sometimes I'm snobby and look down on others. I'm often grumpy and harsh and quick tempered. But those sins are "acceptable" and apparently don't get me classified as a pervert (even though all sin is a perversion of the truth).

Anyway, I digress. I guess my point is this: I think we could all take a moment to remember the sins we've struggled with, been delivered from...or are still struggling with. And we should remember that before we go throwing stones at someone else, or an entire group of defined sinners.

[waygate]

Anyway, I digress. I guess my point is this: I think we could all take a moment to remember the sins we've struggled with, been delivered from...or are still struggling with. And we should remember that before we go throwing stones at someone else, or an entire group of defined sinners.

Those in a glass house shouldn't throw stones.

[eric]

I wonder how someone would feel reading this thread if they struggled with homosexuality. Now, I'm completely against the lifestyle and believe it is a sin, but it breaks my heart to hear a certain group of ppl defined and mocked because of their sin.  Are those who practice homosexuality defiling themselves? Yes. Are they sinful? Yes. But so am I. I disobey authority almost on a daily basis, either in deed or by my attitude. Sometimes I'm snobby and look down on others. I'm often grumpy and harsh and quick tempered. But those sins are "acceptable" and apparently don't get me classified as a pervert (even though all sin is a perversion of the truth).

Anyway, I digress. I guess my point is this: I think we could all take a moment to remember the sins we've struggled with, been delivered from...or are still struggling with. And we should remember that before we go throwing stones at someone else, or an entire group of defined sinners.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I realise what you are saying, Tess, but it doesn't do my heart any favours when I see posters on this board who are willing to turn a blind eye to the enormity and harm that that practice does to our society and our young kids and teens, and what is worse are the posters who try to find loopholes in scripture to justify the life style.

I for one will challenge anyone who, encourages, endorses or sympathises with any sort of sexual immorality.. Sure, we all sin, but we don't go around flaunting our particular short comings and we are to expect some sort of chastening from christian brethren who know what we are up to. NO pain......NO gain. Homosexauls have to learn that they have to repent (which means stop living for the flesh ) and there are not many churches willing to preach it from their pulpits because are afraid of offending someone. They prefer not preach about sin and salvation. Sugar coating the truth never stops people from eternal damnation.

When I'm too old to stand on the word, I'll sit on it or lie on it but I'll never depart from it.

[apothanein kerdos]

First, yes, homosexuality occurs in nature. So does the eating of babies, flinging poo at one another, marking your territory with urine, and killing and fighting in order to have a mate. So hey, if we want to justify homoseuxality by using nature, have at it. Add to it that all of creation suffers from the fall, meaning not all in nature is perfect...the logic on this breaks down really quickly.

Secondly, refering to homosexuals as homos or treating them as sub human NEEDS TO STOP NOW. Read your Bibles, discover who Jesus is, then get back to me on that issue.

[eric]

Hummmmm....... What took ya so long?

Edited October 4, 2005 by eric

[Christ's Free Servant]

Zayit,

I saw the same news broadcast. It is weird, because I never watch CNN. I always watch Fox News. I was really taken back by this news of the penguins, but I thought it was a class of children and it was the teacher who hushed a student. Maybe I was just seeing things, but I thought there were a whole bunch of kids. So, I was appalled that a teacher would tell that to her students. But, I guess that should not surprise me. I thought the kid was pretty smart and it angered me that the adult would tell the child he was wrong. This is just another sign of the times we live in. I'm so glad that my children are all grown. I do have grandchildren, so I hope they are not being taught that kind of stuff.

[Kabowd]

oh, geez---

more defense of the wicked.

the kettle is black.

homosexuality is SIN---no need to apologize.

and no one is LUMPING anyone into a group to throw stones.

WOF'ers have made the faith SICK.

too many "lets be friends" types runnin around with ZERO conviction to call kettle black.

tuff.

here is what Gods word says---LISTEN TO IT ---OR TAKE YOUR LUMPS...

2jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

 

2jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

2jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

 

2jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

one of the doctrines of Christ---is NO FORNICATION OF ANY SORT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey brother. Good to see someone who actually USES their Bible, rather than someone who never actually quotes from it, but only vaguely talks about what they want it to say.

Eph. 5:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

The Sword of the Spirit, i.e. the Bible is our means of evangelism.

We do not evangelize through fantasy and fables. We do not evangelize through "My oppinion is....". We evangelize through the Word of God, and more particularly Jesus Christ and what he did at the cross.

1 Corinthians 2:2 - For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You accuse us of not using Scripture and relying on "opinions", and yet your argument crumbles when the reality is we, too, rely on Scripture for our stance. Ours is not a belief that justifies sin, or excuses sin. Many of us have stated repeatedly that yes, homosexuality is sin. But shoving a sign in someone's face or calling them "homos" and hatefully telling them they're going to hell is not the message of the gospel, it's the opposite of grace. You want to tout your verses about the abomination of their sin, but some of us want to let the grace of Christ be evidenced in our spirit and how we relate to those who are still bound in their sin. We don't view them with contempt and judgment, we see them with compassion and recognize their great need for the grace we've been shown. You want Scripture? I'll give you Scripture. How about Romans 2:4:

"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you towards repentance?" ~ Romans 2:4

That's right folks, believe or not...kindness leads to repentance. Have you forgotten that it was God's heart of compassion towards you and your own sin that led you out of darkness? Sin is wicked and vile and offensive to God, but even while we were in the midst of our sin...He demonstrated His love for us and expressed it through the gift of His Son. So why is it so hard for us to reach out to others trapped in their sin and show them love? We expect them to be receptive to a message of hate and judgment and wonder why the world despises the church. We trample on the blood of Christ and violently sever His message of truth when we seperate it from grace.

Want more Scripture? Yes, there's more. Scripture teaches us that obedience is born out of love:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." ~ John 14:15

Shake your fist in the face of a girl entering an abortion clinic, wave your picket sign in the doorway of a courthouse as two lesbians approach, shout the Scriptures in their ears about how they should repent all you like...but you're doing more damage than good. Scripture teaches us that we only obey God out of love. Only a heart that has been changed seeks to please God. Before the Holy Spirit radically changes us from the inside we are enemies with God (Romans 8:7-8;3:11), we cannot please Him. So why do we put the cart before the horse? Why do we insist that someone changes themselves before they ever come to Christ? This is backwards. We need to show them the beauty and freedom in walking in God's grace, we need to show them the joy and peace found in being forgiven. We need to show them love because love compels obedience, not the other way around.

Want still more Scripture? Here ya go:

"And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." ~ John 1:16-17

Some of you have clearly forsaken grace in your pursuit to preach truth. Scripture teaches us that Christ always combined truth with grace. We're also taught by Paul that when sin abounds, grace is extended all the more. Obedience to God can possibly be forced, but love for God cannot. Is it really success when you've shamed a person into obedience, or scared them into repentance? Is that really the true expression of God's heart towards those He loves? While it's true that God corrects His own, and those who are His suffer consequences for disobedience, at the same time... those who haven't come to Christ yet should not be expected to behave as children of light, they're still in darkness. They don't have the Holy Spirit inside them to lead them and convict them. The best approach is to show them compassion, love, kindness and grace...and let God be the One to draw them to Himself. Trust me, He is faithful to do His job and change them from the inside out...and He does a much better job than we ever could. Some of you need to trust God a whole lot more and realize that He can change them much more sufficiently than you can. We just need to be faithful to live our lives in spirit and in truth. Our lives should exhibit the love of God and reveal the glory of His cross. This alone should be evidence to the world of His truth, but when it's combined with grace and the power of His word we'll become a force to be reckoned with..indeed the body of Christ whom the gates of hell will not prevail against.

Until we learn that truth should be combined with grace, the message we're sending is tragically incomplete.

"Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." ~ Col 4:6

[RGR]

oh, geez---

more defense of the wicked.

the kettle is black.

homosexuality is SIN---no need to apologize.

and no one is LUMPING anyone into a group to throw stones.

WOF'ers have made the faith SICK.

too many "lets be friends" types runnin around with ZERO conviction to call kettle black.

tuff.

here is what Gods word says---LISTEN TO IT ---OR TAKE YOUR LUMPS...

2jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

 

2jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

2jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

 

2jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

one of the doctrines of Christ---is NO FORNICATION OF ANY SORT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should do well winning the lost to Christ with that attitude!

[EricH]

And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 NASB

[Kabowd]

Um. Without the Word of God no real conviction can occur. If you can't quote the Bible to someone to preach to them, then how do you expect them to get saved?

1. It's the Spirit of God that draws people to Himself, not the Bible (see John 6:44; John 12:32)

2. The Word of God became flesh (in the form of Jesus Christ), so it's possible for someone to be saved without ever having heard Scripture quoted to them. All that is necessary is for the Spirit to quicken their hearts and reveal the truth of who Christ is. Of course, this is most effective with the use of God's Word...but He isn't limited to revealing Himself in one way. People have been redeemed while alone in a village, having never heard a scripture at all. God has awakened hearts to His truth in many ways, so saying that no conviction can occur without Scripture is to say God is reliant on His own Word or incapable of redeeming without it.

3. The very verse you listed (John 6:63) clearly states that it's the Holy Spirit that quickens souls. Obviously He most often does this through Scripture, however..He is not reliant on Scripture alone.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Isaiah 55:11 - So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

It is the Word of God that convicts, and consequently saves someone, not your best efforts to show them superficial courtesies.

My how you like to twist words. First, I never suggested "superficial courtesies". I quoted several verses which exhort us to be kind, loving, and gracious with others..and that those things lead hearts to repentance. Yet, you choose to use a strawman argument because that's the only way you can apparently refute it. Secondly, while the Word of God leads to salvation..it is not what saves. The gospel is the message contained in Scripture, the revelation of who Christ is and what He has done on our behalf...this is what leads to salvation. It's only by God's Spirit (revealing the truth and awakening dead hearts) that we are able to comprehend and understand the gospel message. Hearing it alone does not save us. We need a move of the Holy Spirit to reveal what it means (see 1 Cor. 2:10-14). Therefore, you can quote Scripture until you're blue in the face...but a person won't be led to salvation unless the Spirit makes the Scripture alive to them.

I don't insist someone changes themselves before they come to Christ, but I DO insist they recognize and repent of thier sin in the process of coming to Christ, otherwise their "conversion" is not a genuine one anyway, and the real thing will nevervhappen if they aren't told they must do so!

Insist whatever you like, but it does not make it so. Your words contradict eachother. "I don't insist they change themselves...but I DO insist they repent". Uh...hello? Who are you to insist anything? First and foremost, repentance is a gift that comes from God (see 2 Tim. 2:25). You can "insist" someone repents all day long, but it's only by the move of God in them that a person is able to repent. Don't you see that this releases you from having to police someone else's behavior? God bears the responsibility to save and bring someone to repentance. He never commissioned you to convict someone or force them to repent. He does this by His Spirit.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This is Jesus' first specificly recorded preaching! And John's is similar.

"moral evolution" simply doesn't exist. They aren't going to change or get saved "by association" with a christian, especially one who never confronts their sin!!

1. I never said that we should not confront sin! Stop using strawman arguments. Of course we should confront sin, BUT WE SHOULD DO SO IN LOVE, GENTLENESS AND KINDNESS.

2. A person does not come to saving faith through your hammering them with God's Word. You seem to believe that simply quoting Scripture and insisting they repent will do the trick. That just isn't so. A PERSON CANNOT REPENT UNLESS THE SPIRIT IS ALIVE AND AT WORK WITHIN THEM. Don't believe me? Read Acts 16:14; Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3-8; Eph. 2:5; Romans 5:10; 2 Cor. 4:4; John 8:34; Romans 8:7-8;Hebrews 11:6...and I could go on and on. We can do NO GOOD thing apart from God at work within us. So stop expecting people to just muster up the ability to turn from their sin. Start loving them and drawing them towards the heart of God and allow GOD to do the work within their hearts to bring change.

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Psalms 19:9 - The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether

Psalms 111:10 - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Surely you aren't suggesting that these verses mean we should scare someone into repentance. Fear (in the way you're using it) is not a good motivator. It might bring obedience for a season, but it eventually breaks down. This is why God desires our love. He knows that true, consistent obedience is born out of love. In fact, the fear spoken of in these verses is also something born out of love, because it denotes a reverence, respect and knowledge of who He is. Again, you're getting the cart before the horse. No earthly parent wants their child to obey out of fear, and neither does our Heavenly Father. He wants us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength...and He knows obedience will follow.

How are you telling someone teh truth when you don't tell them they are sinning against God and need to repent? Nobody, not one person, has ever been saved without repentance.

Wrong. See all the verses I've listed above. Repentance follows salvation. Prior to salvation (God making our spirit alive) we are *dead* in our sin. How can a dead man do anything? How can a heart that is hostile towards God even desire to repent? (see Romans 8:7). Repentance is the evidence that a heart has been changed. Repentance is the outward expression of the inward work of God. What you are essentially stating is we must work to earn salvation, which is absolutely contrary to Scripture. And how do you suppose the thief on the cross was saved..seeing as how his actions never showed that he was saved? What about death-bed conversions? Do those people go to hell because they never repented of their sins? When we compare the number of times Christ spoke about repentance next to the number of times He spoke about love (loving God especially) you'll see where His emphasis was. He knew that if our hearts were turned towards God, and if we truly loved Him...obedience would follow. This is why He didn't stress the laws the way those before Him did. Christ knew that those who accepted Him and were changed by His Spirit would be compelled to live in the Spirit and walk in obedience.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

You can "be nice" and "love" people ALL DAY LONG and they will not be convicted ONE BIT. They will think you are wierd, and look at you crazy, but they will have no convictions whatsoever as it regards imorality in their own life. The only thing that convicts is "Repent and believe the Gospel."

Tell that to the missionaries in China who meet in secret and have no bible to share. Tell that to my friends who serve in Russia and fear for their lives whenever they meet. Yes, they share the gospel and teach the truth of God..but more than anything they love people and live as trophies of His grace. They risk death just to love these people and hundreds are coming to the Lord. Discipleship is what takes place after someone has believed. Yes, Scripture is necessary to grow and should be honored, loved, upheld, kept in our hearts and obeyed. But when you use it as a weapon against people (to in essence force them to repent) you violate the very Spirit in which the Scriptures were inspired.