Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[DeighAnn]

54 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Well, let's look at a couple of promises first.  In the promise to the church in Philadelphia, the Lord tells them them because they have been faithful in certain things, He will keep them "from the hour of trial which is to come upon the whole world." (Rev 3:10)  This is a conditional promise - because they did certain things, the Lord keeps them from the "hour of trial," which I interpret as the great tribulation.  

And in Luke 21 the Lord goes into some detail about the Great Tribulation period.  At the end of His discourse on the topic, Jesus says in verse 36, "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."  This is another conditional promise verse - the promise being predicated upon certain behaviors being exhibited by His followers. 

Of course, some might point to these verses to show that the one rapture is pre-trib.  However, this belies the fact that these two promises are entirely conditional - not all believers will do the things according of the condition laid out.  Therefore, some will not be included in this pre-trib catching-away.  That leaves some to remain.

Did you know the original words?
Watch also at every season, praying that you may have strength to escape these things all that are about to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man

2729. katischuó ►
Strong's Concordance
katischuó: to overpower
Original Word: κατισχύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katischuó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-is-khoo'-o)
Definition: to overpower

prevail against.
From kata and ischuo; to overpower -- prevail (against).
see GREEK kata
see GREEK ischuo

1628. ekpheugó ►
Strong's Concordance
ekpheugó: to flee away
Original Word: ἐκφεύγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpheugó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-fyoo'-go)
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

So, What I see this saying is  we  REALLY need to pray to prevail against and flee everything that is going to happen,
because THAT is what it will take to stand in front of the Lord.  

I don't understand how that has anything to do with leaving the jobsite, could you explain that? 

You also mentioned 'kept from the hour' and I was wondering why this 'kept' takes you off the planet when no other kept ever did?.  

5083. téreó ►
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.



14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Doesn't THIS VERSE specifically state that BEING TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD isn't what keeps you from evil?
 

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Are the verses/chapter you refer to here correct? I'm not seeing the body in Rev 4 or 3:21 . . .

Rev. 3: 21 refers to the overcomers in the church, the Body of Christ. (see v. 22)

Rev. 4 reveals the Lord enthroned in the third heaven with the Body of Christ. They are represented by the 24 elders.

The 24 Elders represent the two offices of King and Priest. (Rev. 5: 10) (all other realms have those separately)

The 24 Elders represent all those from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. (Rev. 5: 9)

The 24 Elders are crowned and with white robes on throne. These represent kings, authority and salvation. 

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, counterfeit Christians. That are many of them. 

I've admired your astuteness over the time I've been on Worthy. I'm willing to bet that you don't actually believe what you have said here. You know that Peter was a Christian and denied the Lord. You know that Paul was zealous Christian but went down to Jerusalem against the multiple speakings from the Holy Spirit. Peter, late in his career as a Christian and leading brother in Jerusalem was found being untrue to the gospel by Paul in Galatians 2. You know that God requires His Church to be salt and light and never the heathen. You know that Christians can fail. You know that a Church while it can have counterfeit Christians, their future is not to miss the rapture. It is to be judged and burned. Christ is addressing believers here for "Ekklesia" means "gathering of the called out ones"- not; "gathering of a cross-section of humanity".

Naaa ... my esteemed sister. You know sloppy Christian right in your Assembly. Their sloppiness is in spite of being a Christian. And you know that the Church at Philadelphia had no rebuke by the Lord. The "Because" was written to a commendable Church, not a mixture of counterfeit Christians.

And finally, just like all of us who are on this road, you slip up - not as bad as me, but slip up you do. And you are a genuine Christian.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The rapture of the Church will be before the 7 year tribulation to spare His true children from the horrors of the tribulation. That is a blessing. 

When Korah rebelled against Moses, God told all uninvolved Israelites to "stand back". The actual wording was;

And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. (Nu 16:26)

Korah and his family, and his followers were Israelites. They were saved by the Lamb of God. They had crossed the Red Sea with the rest. They drank of the Rock and ate manna. He was a ranking Israelite, a "prince". He was seed of Abraham and heir to the Covenant made with Abraham. He and his followers, their families and their goods died a very unnatural death.

Do you think that if God said "depart from them and their tents" and the innocent bystanders did not, that God would not have killed them and Korah? No! When God gives CONDITIONS to be counted worthy for an escape, as He does in Luke 21, and you do not fulfill these CONDITIONS, you will not escape. God is not a God of empty words. His councils are IMMUTABLE. It will do us very well to heed what He is saying.

On another unrelated theme, may I point out that the Great Tribulation is not 7 years. It is the second half of the 7 years - that is, three and one half years, or 1260 days, or 42 months or "a time, times and half a time". Daniel 9 tells us that the Abomination of Desolation takes place halfway into the last 7 years. And Matthew 24 tells us that this "Abomination of Desolation" is the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is o
...
21 FOR THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:15–21)

The Church is NOT appointed to this Tribulation. But "appointed" does not mean guaranteed. A political leader is appointed for 4 years, but can be impeached after 2. The whole Church is appointed to miss the Tribulation, but if you want to play in the enemy's back yard, expect to join her in her plagues.

[Uriah]

If you mean another rapture like Paul described in 1 Cor 15, no. 

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Rev. 3: 21 refers to the overcomers in the church, the Body of Christ. (see v. 22)

Rev. 4 reveals the Lord enthroned in the third heaven with the Body of Christ. They are represented by the 24 elders.

The 24 Elders represent the two offices of King and Priest. (Rev. 5: 10) (all other realms have those separately)

The 24 Elders represent all those from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. (Rev. 5: 9)

The 24 Elders are crowned and with white robes on throne. These represent kings, authority and salvation. 

Hi Sister,

Your theory above is widely held, but it has difficulties. We are not allowed to interpret scripture privately. So what evidence can we bring to identify the 24 Elders? There are THREE bits is evidence. They are; (i) the number 24, (ii) their crowns, and (iii) Their designation "elders". And then, the grammar is called into question. Here is the text in Revelation 5:8-10:

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

Verse 9 says "they". According to the rules of grammar, the pronoun modifies the last-mentioned antecedent. That is, "they" in verse 9 are the "saints" of verse 8. This rule can be overturned by common sense and/or when it causes an absurdity. In this case the 24 Elders have harps and so it could be taken that the song that followed is common sense. Then the 24 Elders that are taken to be the Church.

But there is another difficulty. The grammar INCLUDES the FOUR BEASTS. Verse 8 says "... the four beasts AND the four and twenty elders ... " "And" is a conjunction. That is, what ever you infer for the 24 Elders you have to accord the same to the four beasts. If the 24 Elders are the Church, then the four beats must also be the Church! Are they? And if so, what proof do you have? And if so why are they different? The difficulty is exacerbated by the four beasts being Cherubim in Ezekiel Chapter 10 and being involved in the chastisement of Israel over 500 years before its existence.

This reverses the "common sense" of the antecedent rule and the song about being kings and priests belongs to the saints. This will be strengthened when we examine the other evidence.

The number 24. The number 24 is never used in conjunction with the Church. It is only used in conjunction with the priestly service of the Temple instituted by David. When both Moses and David set out to build God's House (Tabernacle/Temple) they had to follow a "pattern" of the one in heaven. Therefore, if the earthly temple had 24 courses of priestly service, the heavenly Tabernacle did too. This explains 24 priests in heaven.

Added to this they are "Elders". If the 24 are the Church why are they all "elders". And why was John raptured AFTER them (for they were already there when John was called up to heaven). In Job 38 it is recorded that the angels rejoiced when God made the earth. That means that heaven was first made, then the angles and then the earth. If heaven was made first then the heavenly Tabernacle would be first too, and then served by angels from antiquity - making them "elders".

Added to this, the 24 Elder HAVE THEIR CROWNS ON before Christ has His! They must cast them down when Christ is crowned (or receives His Throne). No Christian will be crowned before Christ is.

I think that the evidence is clear. The 24 Elders are priests of the heavenly Tabernacle and have been so since heaven was made. They are called "elders" because of how long they have served and they have crowns because they have an administrative function. Conversely, the evidence that they are Christians is just lacking.

You have much to consider sister.

[AdHoc]

30 minutes ago, Uriah said:

If you mean another rapture like Paul described in 1 Cor 15, no. 

You allude to an interesting theme. For some reason (maybe our brother Hal Lindsay), Christians think that the "change" in 1st Corinthians 15:50-54 is the rapture. It is not. It is the process of "change" that the dead in Christ experience when the old body is "sown" and then resurrected. The living do not go through this process and so, just before the rapture, they are "changed" from corruptible to incorruptible.

- The dead are changed when they put on their new bodies
- The living are changed at the voice of God and the last trumpet
- Then "TOGETHER" they are "caught away" (harpazo - Gk. meaning "caught or snatched away".)

[missmuffet]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I've admired your astuteness over the time I've been on Worthy. I'm willing to bet that you don't actually believe what you have said here. You know that Peter was a Christian and denied the Lord. You know that Paul was zealous Christian but went down to Jerusalem against the multiple speakings from the Holy Spirit. Peter, late in his career as a Christian and leading brother in Jerusalem was found being untrue to the gospel by Paul in Galatians 2. You know that God requires His Church to be salt and light and never the heathen. You know that Christians can fail. You know that a Church while it can have counterfeit Christians, their future is not to miss the rapture. It is to be judged and burned. Christ is addressing believers here for "Ekklesia" means "gathering of the called out ones"- not; "gathering of a cross-section of humanity".

Naaa ... my esteemed sister. You know sloppy Christian right in your Assembly. Their sloppiness is in spite of being a Christian. And you know that the Church at Philadelphia had no rebuke by the Lord. The "Because" was written to a commendable Church, not a mixture of counterfeit Christians.

And finally, just like all of us who are on this road, you slip up - not as bad as me, but slip up you do. And you are a genuine Christian.

Yes, I mean what I said. 

Revelation 3:15-17

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, I mean what I said. 

Revelation 3:15-17

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

These are believers. He is speaking to the called-out gathering (Gk. ekklesia) in Laodicea.  All these 7 churches are golden lampstands - not counterfeit - they are all regenerated believers.  The one's He vomits out don't meet certain conditions (just as in most of the letters to the 7 ekklesias). And they don't loose salvation, they just don't measure up in their works ("I know your works").

Edited October 31, 2022 by Vine Abider

[Cntrysner]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But there is another difficulty. The grammar INCLUDES the FOUR BEASTS. Verse 8 says "... the four beasts AND the four and twenty elders ... " "And" is a conjunction. That is, what ever you infer for the 24 Elders you have to accord the same to the four beasts.

Your statement is absurd, because they are present at the same time does not equate to being the same in status.