Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Of course, I did. Didn't you read my post. I posted all the scriptures you listed. 12/8/2022 9:25 AM.

I'll repost the scriptures again. 

Daniel 2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

There are the verses you mentioned. They don't seem to say there is only one resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.

1 Corinthians 15

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It requires an understanding that Christ comes more than once that many people seem to be blind to. However, those that are Christs at His coming will be caught up.

1. Christ will come first for the dead in Christ. The barley harvest.

2. Christ will come for the alive Church that remains. The wheat harvest. It will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. It occurs at the trump of God or voice of God

3. Christ will come for the 144,000 first fruits of the fall fruit harvest.

4. Christ will come for the seed of the woman at the fall fruit harvest at the end of the age at the 6th seal. It will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction comes. It will occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

5. Christ will come again for Armageddon and the judgement.

I was really referring to the fact that Daniel said many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised.

I don't understand your post.  All you did was requote the verses I quoted, which prove that there will be A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved.

And you gave no explanation or anything.  So, do you have a point of disagreement or not?  

You only asked this one question regarding Dan 12, not 2:

Why does it not say ALL that sleep in the ground shall be raised? It does qualify that some are raised to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, I'll ask you a very obvious question:  why would anyone think that the Bible SHOULD say "all that sleep in the ground"?  

Since we know from several other NT verses that there will be believers ALIVE at the resurrection of the saved, they AREN'T sleeping in the ground.  So that would explain why the author wrote "many of them".  Because not ALL OF THEM will be sleeping in the ground.  Certainly, most will be.  

[Vine Abider]

@FreeGrace @The Light you two have been going back and forth with this dialog for some time.  Can one or both of you - in two shorter paragraphs - please summarize what your discussion has been about?  Thanks!

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@FreeGrace @The Light you two have been going back and forth with this dialog for some time.  Can one or both of you - in two shorter paragraphs - please summarize what your discussion has been about?  Thanks!

My point is that there are only 2 resurrections of humans; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  The one for the saved includes all the living believers who will be "changed" in the air.  The resurrection of the saved will occur at the Second Advent, which will be 1,000 years before the resurrection of the unsaved.

[Vine Abider]

54 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

My point is that there are only 2 resurrections of humans; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  The one for the saved includes all the living believers who will be "changed" in the air.  The resurrection of the saved will occur at the Second Advent, which will be 1,000 years before the resurrection of the unsaved.

Thank you!  Now, if you're open, argue the position of @The Light as if you were trying to pursued someone.  Are you able to do that?

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thank you!  Now, if you're open, argue the position of @The Light as if you were trying to pursued someone.  Are you able to do that?

I'm still not sure what his position or point is yet.  His last few posts were simply requotes of the verses I have quoted.  

Maybe he'll answer your post.  

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@FreeGrace @The Light you two have been going back and forth with this dialog for some time.  Can one or both of you - in two shorter paragraphs - please summarize what your discussion has been about?  Thanks!

There are multiple resurrections of the righteous just as there are multiple raptures.

The dead in Christ rise first at the coming of Jesus. Then Jesus comes again for the alive Church. At that point part of the Jews eyes are opened as the fullness of the Gentiles has come. 

Then Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. After that Jesus returns for this harvest, his second bride, the chosen bride at the 6th seal.

Jesus also returns at the end of wrath and there is a resurrection.

So the point is the righteous are raised more than once. When He comes, those that are His at His coming are raised. 

[Vine Abider]

Thanks to both of you for your succinct replies!  That also helps me see we're still on topic, as I wasn't able to read all the numerous back & forth posts. 

Be blessed and carry on.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Vine Abider
Clarity

[Selah7]

Greetings there, @Vine Abider 

My understanding is as follows.  Consider:

Okay, so some believe in a pre-trib rapture, some believe in a mid-trib rapture, and some believe in a post-trib rapture.  Me? I don’t believe in any kind of rapture.

I only believe and await expectantly my Savior’s Second Coming.

The pre-trib doctrine, which is the most popular, holds that Christ will "take away" His church before the tribulation of the beast described in Revelation chapter 13.  Also, this event could happen at any time. The beast of Revelation is then allowed to bring great tribulation and destruction throughout the world. Now, does that even sound logical?  We simply fly up in the air prior to the great chaos and destruction on earth to save our own skins?  The people of God don’t stick around and endure till the end?  The people of God don’t stick around to be used by God when they’re delivered up, whereby the Holy Spirit will speak through them?

At the second advent, The King of kings and Lord of lords returns at the 7th trump, the last Trump, after the antichrist (Satan) has been standing in Jerusalem claiming to be God. Look here; Paul explains this clearly:

2 Thessalonians 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jesus Christ is not returning until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs after Satan is revealed.  

Edited December 12, 2022 by Selah7
added scripture

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

There are multiple resurrections of the righteous just as there are multiple raptures.

 

 

How come there are no verses at all about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

And how come 1 Cor 15:23 tells us specifically WHEN the singular resurrection occurs, which is "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent.

Also, 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing.

"The dead in Christ rise first at the coming of Jesus. Then Jesus comes again for the alive Church. At that point part of the Jews eyes are opened as the fullness of the Gentiles has come. "

Please prove from Scripture that the dead are resurrected at one point in time and the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of the eye" at another point.

Rather, 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the living believers will be "caught up TOGETHER with the ones from heaven" .  So this proves that both the dead saints from heaven and the living believers from earth all receive their glorified bodies at the SAME EVENT.

"Then Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. After that Jesus returns for this harvest, his second bride, the chosen bride at the 6th seal."

Please explain who exactly will be in this "next harvest".  And then WHEN is "this harvest, His second bride"?  

How do you know when the 6th seal will be broken?  

"Jesus also returns at the end of wrath and there is a resurrection.

So the point is the righteous are raised more than once. When He comes, those that are His at His coming are raised."

Here is a "summary" of all these supposed resurrections:

1.  the dead in Christ in the first resurrection.  You haven't explained if that is just "the church" who have already died or includes all OT saints as well.

2.  the living believers will be in a second resurrection, in spite of 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4.

3.  A third resurrection will include the 144K of the "next harvest".  No mention of exactly when that will be.

4.  A fourth resurrection will be for "this harvest, the second bride at the 6th seal".  Yet there is no evidence from Scripture about this.

5.  A fifth resurrection will occur at the "end of wrath".  But no explanation of who will be in that resurrection.

Your claim about "the righteous are raised more than once" is absurd.  No saved person will be resurrected more than once.  And you haven't proven from Scripture with clear verses about all these supposed resurrections, or who is in some of them.

1 Cor 15:23 refutes all of this.  "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

This verse is crystal clear.  After the resurrection of Christ, as firstfruits, THEN, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people from Adam on, will be resurrected, WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent.

So, as 1 Thess 4 shows, all believers will be glorified at the same event.  And 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing.

And Rev 20:4-6 plainly says that the tribulational martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection, and the only resurrection left is going to be 1,000 years later, which is the singular resurrection of the unbelievers.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

How come there are no verses at all about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 14

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revlelation 19

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

And how come 1 Cor 15:23 tells us specifically WHEN the singular resurrection occurs, which is "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent.

I already explained this. They that are Christs at His coming. He comes for the Church and the Church is raptured. He comes for the 144,000 first fruits as they are Christs at His coming. He comes for the second harvest at the 6th seal as they are at that point Christs at His coming.

In Revelation 14 we can easily see that Christ came for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. So, Christ came to the earth, and it WAS NOT at the end of the trumpets, the second advent.

Rev 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Also, 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing.

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

What this amounts to is that anytime there is a coming of Jesus Christ you claim that is at the second advent. But that is incorrect. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs before the wrath not at the end of the wrath of God like you think. The gathering occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect. The scriptures below show the gathering is at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Please prove from Scripture that the dead are resurrected at one point in time and the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of the eye" at another point.

Rather, 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the living believers will be "caught up TOGETHER with the ones from heaven" .  So this proves that both the dead saints from heaven and the living believers from earth all receive their glorified bodies at the SAME EVENT.

Looking at 1 Corinthians 15 we can see that the dead and the living righteous receive their glorified bodies at the same time, in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

However, in 1 Thes 4 we see that the dead are raised before the living. We also see that Jesus will bring those which sleep with Him. 

1 Thessalonians 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I see nothing that proves these two events, the dead in Christ rising, and then the alive believers rising afterward happen at the same time. Why would they both not be raised in the twinkling of an eye like those in 1 Corinthians 15. That in itself proves that 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are not the same coming of Jesus.

The reason I believe that the dead in Christ and the alive Church are caught at different times is because of the harvests. The barley harvest is the dead in Christ and that would occur at Passover. The wheat harvest would be the alive Church and that happens at Pentecost. The priest would present the barley cake and the wheat cake on Pentecost. Therefore, I don't think that the events will happen on the same day. Otherwise, why not both events happening in the twinkling of an eye.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Please explain who exactly will be in this "next harvest".  And then WHEN is "this harvest, His second bride"?  

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the Pretribulation Rapture, part of Israel will have its eyes opened.

They will realize that they have missed the harvest.

Jeremiah 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God turns His attention to Israel, and it is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that will be raptured from the earth. The 144,000 are first fruits of the harvest. They will be raptured at the fall fruit harvest, which happen on the Feast of Trumpets, where the last trump is blown by the way.

The harvest will take place at the 6th seal just before the wrath of God. We can see the harvest in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

There are two brides that will attend the marriage supper. Jacob had two brides Leah and Rachel. Rachel was the chosen bride and Jacob had to work 7 more years for her. 

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

How do you know when the 6th seal will be broken?  

There will be no question when this happens. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man. I'm thinking that Jesus will be visible on the clouds as the kings of the earth will be in caves and underground bunkers.

Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 

Here is a "summary" of all these supposed resurrections:

1.  the dead in Christ in the first resurrection.  You haven't explained if that is just "the church" who have already died or includes all OT saints as well.

I think it will be the Church. They are the ones in Christ.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

2.  the living believers will be in a second resurrection, in spite of 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4.

I don't think I said resurrection, if I did, I meant rapture.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3.  A third resurrection will include the 144K of the "next harvest".  No mention of exactly when that will be.

It will occur sometime in the 1st 4 seals. You can figure that out from Revelation 14.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

4.  A fourth resurrection will be for "this harvest, the second bride at the 6th seal".  Yet there is no evidence from Scripture about this.

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

5.  A fifth resurrection will occur at the "end of wrath".  But no explanation of who will be in that resurrection.

Your claim about "the righteous are raised more than once" is absurd.  No saved person will be resurrected more than once.  And you haven't proven from Scripture with clear verses about all these supposed resurrections, or who is in some of them.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

1 Cor 15:23 refutes all of this.  "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

This verse is crystal clear.  After the resurrection of Christ, as firstfruits, THEN, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people from Adam on, will be resurrected, WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent.

No. That's what you are incorrectly concluding. That's not what the scriptures say.

They that are Christs at His coming. He comes before the seals are opened for His Church because they are Christs at His coming.

Then part of Israel has its blindness removed. They become Christians. Jesus comes at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. There is a rapture because they are now Christs at His coming.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

So, as 1 Thess 4 shows, all believers will be glorified at the same event.  And 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing.

Well these are two different events. 1 Thessalonians 4 is when Jesus comes for the Church. 2 Thessalonians is not the same thing. 2 Thes 2 is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the 6th seal.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

And Rev 20:4-6 plainly says that the tribulational martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection, and the only resurrection left is going to be 1,000 years later, which is the singular resurrection of the unbelievers.

The 1st resurrection is the resurrection of life. There is more than one harvest so obviously the 1st resurrection to life can happen to different harvests.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said: