Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[Vine Abider]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Phew! I managed to get one posting down to reasonable size. You have the knack of getting it concisely. May I just add a bit to your answer?

If you look at Leviticus 23, it is THE Chapter on the harvest. And an interesting constellation is revealed:

God is Lord of the Harvest - First fruits (the best tenth as well) is His

There is a first fruit offered WITHOUT leaven. It is waved on the "morrow after the Sabbath" - the day of resurrection. It can only be our Lord Jesus (Vs.4-14)

The next firstfruits are to be offered WITH leaven - any guesses who they are? (V.17)

Then comes the general harvest without comment.

Notice that the firstfruits with leaven in verse 17 are offered 50 days after the firstfruit without leaven. 50 is the number of the Jubilee when all must be freed and when you have your inheritance returned. No such commands for the general harvest. This would seem to indicate that those of the firstfruits inherit the earth - our inheritance.

Awesome - You have good knowledge/insights into the feasts and how it relates to this subject!

Did we talk already about how the male child in Rev 12 relates to the firstfruits? (I've been talking with various ones about multiple raptures, so without going back and looking, I've forgotten if we'd addressed that or not . . .)

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your format is a little difficult for me to answer (I'm that old computer illiterate generation), so instead of a point to point answer, I'll summarize your main objections and answer them collectively.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, the fault is on me.  I haven't figured out to format for a point by point response.

Your first, and not least, objection is that only Jesus has received His resurrection body. As proof, you take that which is not said. But can we build our doctrine on what is NOT said?

Not true.  1 Cor 15:23 specifically says that the resurrection of Jesus is FIRSTFRUITS.  And there are only two categories of resurrection in that context;  Jesus' and all believers.  Second, Acts 26:23 specifically says that Jesus was the FIRST to "rise from the dead".  We know there are examples of dead bodies coming back to life in the OT as well as the recordings of dead people during Jesus' ministry being brought back to life.  It is obvious to me that 1 Cor 15;23 and Acts 26:23 clearly make the point that Jesus was FIRST to receive the resurrection body that is promised to all believers.

I do not ask this flippantly. I ask it because in your comprehensive answer, you hardly brought a scripture.

This is an amazing statement, since I quoted many verses.

I'm not complaining because I did the same. But I think that we must document such great statements like the "dead are waiting in heaven".

Where do you think the dead believers are waiting now?  The SDA believe in "soul sleep", but I reject that idea because the Bible uses "sleep" as a euphemism for physical death in many places.  1 Cor 11:30, John 13 and Lazarus, for example.

There is, to my knowledge, no verse that says this.

Rev 6 speaks about "souls under the altar" and the context is IN heaven and they are talking.  Was John making all that up?

Much more, the dead are in Hades. Our Lord went there when He died, and David was still there 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:27-34).

Jesus took ALL the dead saints that were in Paradise to heaven after His crucifixion.  Eph 4.  As to Acts 2, Peter was quoting David from the OT (v.25).

As to your claim that David is still there, v.29 - “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day." doesn't say that David is still there, it says HIS TOMB is still there.  I think you are assuming way too much.

The RISE, which they could not do if they were "on high" already.

Real simple.  1 Thess 4:14 - For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

So clearly all dead believers are NOW with Jesus in heaven.  And when He comes back, He will bring with Him all those dead believers, to receive their resurrection bodies.

v.16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.    This is a reference to their physical bodies rising from graves.  

I am aware that the great bulk of Christianity believe what you do But they are unable to prove it. LIVE MEN - YES, but dead men - I think not.

I believe that I just did.  You are free to your own opinion.  btw, this works both ways.  What verses support your claims, that believers are still in Hades?

The evidence that dead men go to Hades is overwhelming.

This isn't the argument.  Before Jesus' resurrection, the souls of ALL people went to Hades.  The saved to Paradise, also called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved to "torments".  But Jesus emptied Paradise and took them to heaven.  Rev 6.

And the word "resurrection" means to STAND UP. This is a function of the BODY.

We need to discern between simple resusitation of physical bodies, like that of Lazarus and the examples in the gospels, and receiving a glorified resurrection body when Jesus comes back.

1st Corinthians 15 deals with "WHAT BODY ..." That is, any man who is raised from the dead is in a BODY. And since it is a resurrection, he must have his "resurrection" body. And finally, in EVERY recorded case of resurrection in the Bible, that person received his/her same body back. Even the grammar supports this (1 Co 15:36).

This chapter deals with everything related to the resurrection of all believers.

The idea is not to write a book here. Nobody reads it anyway. But I think I have brought enough proof to let my previous posting stand. If I get the chance, I will answer your next big objection - a very valid one; Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was first from the dead!

That verse is bonded to 1 Cor 15:23.  ;)

 

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Awesome - You have good knowledge/insights into the feasts and how it relates to this subject!

Did we talk already about how the male child in Rev 12 relates to the firstfruits? (I've been talking with various ones about multiple raptures, so without going back and looking, I've forgotten if we'd addressed that or not . . .)

It's been a great encouragement to have somebody who has seen the matter of the firstfruits on the Forum. I've been doing Forums since 2011 and have only met with opposition till now. I embraced this evident scheme of things around 1984 but have only met with resistance. Because it has met with such opposition, I've had to go through it very carefully so as to be able to answer every objection - including my own initially.

I did a posting on Revelation 12 recently, but a whole Chapter causes a longish posting and I think not many people read it. I'll try to find it if I can. Because scholars (myself included) often enter a matter with a preconceived notion, the general understanding is that the Woman is Israel and the Man-Child is Jesus. Even if I bring 5, 6 or 7 proofs that this could not be, one gets ignored. Pity, because once one sees it, the correct understanding fits so well.

Without posting the full argument, I understand the Chapter to show
(1) The heavenly Woman but on earth having THREE seeds
(i) The Man-Child - the Overcomers of the Church (or Firstfruits if you like)
(ii) "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" - the rest of the Church
(iii) "those who keep the commandment of God" - the Jewish Remnant

There is only one entity or system in the Bible that supports this constellation
- Christ's Kingdom in this age - The Olive Tree - incomplete with Israel under chasisement
- Christ's Kingdom in the great Tribulation - The Woman under persecution with the mature part removed from earth
- Christ's Kingdom completed in New Jerusalem - a Woman with the Church as the Walls perfected and Israel as the Gates perfected

Now, traditionally, Israel and the Church are antagonists. Nowhere practically is this better seen than in Acts of the Apostles. And nowhere doctrinaly is this better seen than in the Book of Galatians. Galatians CONTRAST Israel and the Church to the uttermost. The Holy Spirit uses language very provocative for the New Testament, like; "I wish them cut off", or "cursed". One is Sarah and the other is Hagar. One Law and one is grace: Paul contrasts the "we" and "they" all the time. And then suddenly, in the middle of deep contrast He JOINS the two antagonists in Chapter 4:26 by giving them the same MOTHER.

He does not unravel his case of CONTRAST, but declares a common origin. She is "MOTHER of US ALL". And this is true only in Revelation 12 where the heavenly Woman is mother of the Man-Child, those who have Jesus' testimony and those who keep God's commandments. And it is true only in New Jerusalem.

I propose that the Woman is New Jerusalem (but not yet perfected) and that the Man-Child is the Overcomers (firstfruits) of the Church. Objectors to this understanding will try to push Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. But under a precise analysis, the visions are different. The only similarity is that God's people are numbered as 12. In every other incidence the elements are different.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Not true.  1 Cor 15:23 specifically says that the resurrection of Jesus is FIRSTFRUITS.  And there are only two categories of resurrection in that context;  Jesus' and all believers.  Second, Acts 26:23 specifically says that Jesus was the FIRST to "rise from the dead".  We know there are examples of dead bodies coming back to life in the OT as well as the recordings of dead people during Jesus' ministry being brought back to life.  It is obvious to me that 1 Cor 15;23 and Acts 26:23 clearly make the point that Jesus was FIRST to receive the resurrection body that is promised to all believers.

The word "firsfruits" means firstfruits. It has nothing to do with what type of body one has in resurrection. The Bible does not make a distinction between dead bodies coming to life and "resurrection". One is the other.

Acts 26:23 presents us both with a challenge. All three Old Testament cases of resurrection, and that of Lazarus clearly show the person to have been dead for some time. Their resurrections are so placed in history that it makes Acts 26:23 patently untrue IF you take the meaning of "protos" as "first in time". But all problems disappear if we use the meaning "first in rank or importance". This alludes to Christ's deity and to His preeminence. He was "slain from the foundation of the world" is correct because He was both Man and God. So also "before Abraham I am", and "He BECAME author of an eternal salvation" (Heb.5:9). This very difficult sentence is solved only by His eternal nature. And so Is Act 26:23.

If this be so, then it has nothing to do with what type of Body He came from the grave with. He Himself said it was "flesh and bones" and it still had His wounds. I think that there are no grounds to equate a firstfruits with what type of body he comes with.

In the section 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 THREE resurrections are shown - not TWO as you maintain. There is Christ's, then, as we know, quite some time goes by until "those who are his" are resurrected. Then a time of His REIGNING and SUBDUING must go by but death is not yet subdued. Magog is an enemy and him and his hoards are killed - adding to the power and numbers of the dead. But then suddenly, amid all this death, death is destroyed. If one man was left dead, death could not be said to be destroyed. So the MUST have been a final resurrection after Magog. And truly, Revelation 20 reveals a grand resurrection 1,000 years AFTER "those who are his".
 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Real simple.  1 Thess 4:14 - For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

So clearly all dead believers are NOW with Jesus in heaven.  And when He comes back, He will bring with Him all those dead believers, to receive their resurrection bodies.

v.16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.    This is a reference to their physical bodies rising from graves.

Not so. This section informs the "sorrowing" Thessalonians of something. The cause of the sorrow is that they thought that by dying, the dead saints would NOT be in this company of triumphant saints. The early Christians did not suffer from the Roman Catholic myth that one goes to heaven at death. The sorrow was that Paul had taught what Jude reported Enoch as saying, that is, when Christ returned from the sky, He would have in His company angels and saints. The dead saints were in the grave bodily and their souls were in Sheol (or Hades), so the living Thessalonians thought that they would miss this triumphant arrival on earth from the sky.

Paul's discourse in 1st Thessalonians 4 is not to teach the mechanism of rapture. It is to teach how dead men get to be with the Lord when He comes from the sky. If the dead were already in heaven, then where was the "ignorance", and why the "sorrow"? And what "comfort" was needed?

Added to this, other recorded resurrections are the same. Our Lord Jesus did not go to heaven and on the third day His dead body rose to the sky to meet Jesus. Matthew 12:40 says he went to the heart of the earth, and when He was RISEN He told Mary that He had "NOT YET ascended!" The Ten Virgins were also asleep. When the cry went up; "Go ye out to meet Him". How could this be if they were already with Him?

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I believe that I just did.  You are free to your own opinion.  btw, this works both ways.  What verses support your claims, that believers are still in Hades?

1. Christ says that he Gates of Hades will not prevail against building the Church. That is, it presents a problem
2.David's BODY is in a grave, but David's SOUL is still in Hades 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus, and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:29, 34)
3. The dead are naked (2nd Cor.5). How shall they appear in heaven?
4. The dead are unclean. How shall they appear before God?
5. The dead RISE
6. Jesus has preeminence in ALL things. If we do not follow what His experience was, we have preeminence
7. there is no scripture to maintain a mass exodus from Hades to heaven
8. In Ephesians 4 "Leading Captivity captive" means; (i) Captivity is still a captivity, (ii) this captivity has itself become a captive, and (iii) there is no record of movement of the original captivity

 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This isn't the argument.  Before Jesus' resurrection, the souls of ALL people went to Hades.  The saved to Paradise, also called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved to "torments".  But Jesus emptied Paradise and took them to heaven.  Rev 6.

I find no scripture that says dead men are in heaven in Revelation 6. The Tabernacle that Moses made had TWO altars - one in the Outer Court for sacrificing and one in the Holy Place for incense. The altar of sacrifice in the Outer court was plated in brass, the altar of Incense was plated in gold. Heaven dos not need a Brazen altar because there is no redemption for heaven. The golden altar may not have blood on it after the dedication. The altar of sacrifice must be on the earth.
(i) That is where our Lord was sacrificed
(ii) That is where the martyrs are sacrificed
(iii) The altar of sacrifice may not be elevated (Ex.20:26). It was to be fixed to the earth. If so, the martyrs are under the altar of sacrifice, beneath the earth. If they were elevated, their nakedness would be shown
(iv) Revelation 6 is a time when the Seals have been opened. The previous seal caused the death of a quarter of the earth's population. Has this happened. If not, the souls are still UNDER the altar of sacrifice - the earth where Jesus was sacrificed.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

We need to discern between simple resusitation of physical bodies, like that of Lazarus and the examples in the gospels, and receiving a glorified resurrection body when Jesus comes back.

Scripture? I think that such a statement should have scripture attached, especially when John 5:39 says that the resurrection of the damned is a "resurrection".

I think that we can agree that the doctrine of going to heaven when we die is very shaky. Many scriptures make much more sense when men are found in Hades after death. And for so great a doctrine there should be a wealth of scripture. But there is not a single direct statement. It is a doctrine based on innuendo. I am also aware that it is popular and mayn Christians cherish their heaven (even if they have no scripture)

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I propose that the Woman is New Jerusalem (but not yet perfected) and that the Man-Child is the Overcomers (firstfruits) of the Church. Objectors to this understanding will try to push Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. But under a precise analysis, the visions are different. The only similarity is that God's people are numbered as 12. In every other incidence the elements are different.

After reading what you posted here, I remembered that I did see something you wrote about it - that may even be in this thread!  I agree that the woman is all God's children, both OT & NT saints, so saying she is an earlier version of the New Jerusalem is not a stretch. 

I too have seen that the male child in chapter 12 is definitely not Jesus, for a number of reasons.  When it says in verse 10, "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb  . . . " it is clearly not Jesus Himself (but rather Christ grown in His saints). Many other evidences in chapter 12 pointing to this, which you probably know already.

However, recently I've wondered if the firstfruits in chapter 14 are the same as the man-child in chapter 12.  I asked a very well versed brother about this Thursday morning.  I've had several conversations with him over the years about the ID of the woman and the child.  We agree that it's defiantly not Jesus Himself there, and that the woman is all saints throughout history.  But when I posed this question to him - if there is solid evidence that the 1st fruits & the man-child might be different - it gave him pause.  He said no one had asked him that before.

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

However, recently I've wondered if the firstfruits in chapter 14 are the same as the man-child in chapter 12.  I asked a very well versed brother about this Thursday morning.  I've had several conversations with him over the years about the ID of the woman and the child.  We agree that it's defiantly not Jesus Himself there, and that the woman is all saints throughout history.  But when I posed this question to him - if there is solid evidence that the 1st fruits & the man-child might be different - it gave him pause.  He said no one had asked him that before.

In my humble opinion you're right on the nail. I must tell you why. But first lets make an outline. It helps.
- Israel missed the kingdom
- The disciples were a bit mystfied
- The Church is called "the little flock"
- Few of the Church make it into the kingdom
- Many do not make it into the Wedding Feast
- In Matthew 24 and 25 many Christians fail at the judgment Seat

Why is this significant?

The Father in Heaven has One Son Whom He revers and treasures above all else. And this Son has gone outside of all protocol to please His Father. Not only did Jesus earn what as coning to Him, but the father WANTS everything to be pleasurable and perfect for His beloved Son. And this pleasure is bound up in the Church.

The Church is the New Creature taken from His side in death.
-  It is bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh
-  It shares the divine life intrinsically
-  It is His Bride
-  It is His new administration - co-kings

Now, looking at our outline above, we must appreciate how SMALL the contingent of people WHO WILL GIVE CHRIST PLEASURE are! For so great a God, the REWARD and INHERITANCE of Christ is relatively small. The Firstfruits, Overcomers of Man-Child are few. And thus they form a MOST IMPORTANT REMNANT in His economy. The Overcomers / Firstfruits are God PRIZE. He is vitally involved with them - not mainly for their sakes, but for His Son's sake.

Thus, the appear very strategically and in full focus of the Bible. God joined Himself to man. And those men who do not fail Him are the focus of His economy. His well-being is tied up in them.
They are lovers of His Son Jesus
They embrace His Son Jesus
The give their lives for the Son
They have the right wedding garment
They "wasted" their resources on Him
They are His ambassadors and testimony

And so you will find them in various scenes throughout scripture. The Overcomers of the Churches. The obedient servants. Those who build correctly. Those who walk His road of suffering. The firstfruits. The Man-Child. Those who displace Satan. Those who love Jesus more than themselves. Those who made themselves ready for the wedding feast. Those who get covered in blood at Armageddon. Those who make His Kingdom a kingdom of righteousness, peace and joy.

Our Lord's pleasure is tied up with us. Are we going to please ourselves  ... or Him?

[FreeGrace]

39 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The word "firsfruits" means firstfruits. It has nothing to do with what type of body one has in resurrection. The Bible does not make a distinction between dead bodies coming to life and "resurrection". One is the other.

I'm going to "cut and paste" to respond, since I prefer addressing individual points rather than just at the end of long post.

You said:  "The word "firsfruits" means firstfruits. It has nothing to do with what type of body one has in resurrection. The Bible does not make a distinction between dead bodies coming to life and "resurrection". One is the other."

That is an opinion.  Since Acts 26:23 CLEARLY notes that Jesus "was the FIRST to rise from the dead", how can that be true since the Bible notes MANY who came back from the dead?  And we know that at the Second Advent, when all believers will receive their resurrection bodies, it is simply impossible to assume that those mentioned in the OT or during Jesus' ministry that any of them received resurrection bodies.

Then you said, "Acts 26:23 presents us both with a challenge. All three Old Testament cases of resurrection, and that of Lazarus clearly show the person to have been dead for some time. Their resurrections are so placed in history that it makes Acts 26:23 patently untrue IF you take the meaning of "protos" as "first in time". But all problems disappear if we use the meaning "first in rank or importance". This alludes to Christ's deity and to His preeminence. He was "slain from the foundation of the world" is correct because He was both Man and God. So also "before Abraham I am", and "He BECAME author of an eternal salvation" (Heb.5:9). This very difficult sentence is solved only by His eternal nature. And so Is Act 26:23."

All you are doing is trying to explain away Acts 26:23 from the previous returns to life.  What the Bible doesn't say is that any of those OT or NT return to life accounts included the glorified body.  That is your problem.  All of the accounts died again.  btw, the Bible doesn't say that no one can die twice anyway.  

Then you said, "In the section 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 THREE resurrections are shown - not TWO as you maintain. There is Christ's, then, as we know, quite some time goes by until "those who are his" are resurrected. Then a time of His REIGNING and SUBDUING must go by but death is not yet subdued. Magog is an enemy and him and his hoards are killed - adding to the power and numbers of the dead. But then suddenly, amid all this death, death is destroyed. If one man was left dead, death could not be said to be destroyed. So the MUST have been a final resurrection after Magog. And truly, Revelation 20 reveals a grand resurrection 1,000 years AFTER "those who are his"."

There are not 3 as you claim.  v.23 is crystal clear.  Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified body.  And then, "when He comes" we read, "those who belong to Him".  That is a reference to TWO resurrections involving glorified bodies.  First is Jesus Himself, and second is "those who belong to Him".  That means ALL believers, in spite of any naysayers.

Your comment about the MK is irrelevant, since Rev 20 is very clear about the FIRST of two resurrections will occur at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns.  The next resurrection is that of all unbelievers, and that one occurs at the end of the MK.

Then you said:  " This section informs the "sorrowing" Thessalonians of something. The cause of the sorrow is that they thought that by dying, the dead saints would NOT be in this company of triumphant saints. The early Christians did not suffer from the Roman Catholic myth that one goes to heaven at death. The sorrow was that Paul had taught what Jude reported Enoch as saying, that is, when Christ returned from the sky, He would have in His company angels and saints. The dead saints were in the grave bodily and their souls were in Sheol (or Hades), so the living Thessalonians thought that they would miss this triumphant arrival on earth from the sky."

Your comment about the "sorrowing Thessalonians" misses Paul's point.  They weren't concerned about the dead saints.  They were concerned that THEY themselves had already missed the event.  2 Thess 2:1-3.  Then you contradicted your commnt about the Thess church being concerned about the dead saints missing out by your last comment about they themselves missing out.  Seems confused here.

Then you said:  "Paul's discourse in 1st Thessalonians 4 is not to teach the mechanism of rapture. It is to teach how dead men get to be with the Lord when He comes from the sky. If the dead were already in heaven, then where was the "ignorance", and why the "sorrow"? And what "comfort" was needed?"

Since I disagree with your view about where the souls of dead saints are, there is nothing more t0 say.  Paul was teaching what would happen when Jesus returns, with all the dead saints, who are already in heaven, as Rev 6 proves.  They receive their glorified bodies before those who are alive and remain.

Then you said:  "Added to this, other recorded resurrections are the same."  

Not sure of the context of this comment, but what is clear is that NO ONE receives a glorified body until the Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation to reign in the MK.

Then you said:  "1. Christ says that he Gates of Hades will not prevail against building the Church. That is, it presents a problem
2.David's BODY is in a grave, but David's SOUL is still in Hades 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus, and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:29, 34)
3. The dead are naked (2nd Cor.5). How shall they appear in heaven?
4. The dead are unclean. How shall they appear before God?
5. The dead RISE
6. Jesus has preeminence in ALL things. If we do not follow what His experience was, we have preeminence
7. there is no scripture to maintain a mass exodus from Hades to heaven
8. In Ephesians 4 "Leading Captivity captive" means; (i) Captivity is still a captivity, (ii) this captivity has itself become a captive, and (iii) there is no record of movement of the original captivity"

I've already addressed your error about where David's body is.  

1.  There is no problem, but I get it that you think so.

2. No.  David's soul is in heaven, as Rev 6 proves clearly.

3. "dead naked" only refers to being without the "tent", which is the physical body.

4. Refers to a rotting corpse, not souls.

5. Their bodies rise.  1 Thess 4 clearly shows the dead believers coming with Christ at His return.

6. ?

7. yes, there is.  Eph 4:7,8 is clear enough.

You said:  "I find no scripture that says dead men are in heaven in Revelation 6."

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 

10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

You can see what you want, but "souls under the altar" isn't about the earth.  This is how John opened chapter 6 - I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”   In the context from ch 4 to ch 6, John is in heaven.  So he was seeing the souls of dead saints.

"The Tabernacle that Moses made had TWO altars - one in the Outer Court for sacrificing and one in the Holy Place for incense. The altar of sacrifice in the Outer court was plated in brass, the altar of Incense was plated in gold. Heaven dos not need a Brazen altar because there is no redemption for heaven. The golden altar may not have blood on it after the dedication. The altar of sacrifice must be on the earth."

I don't find any of this to be relevant about Moses' tabernacle.  You'll have to explain yourself on that.

You said:  "I think that such a statement should have scripture attached, especially when John 5:39 says that the resurrection of the damned is a "resurrection"."

Exactly!  There are just 2 resurrections of humans.  One is for the saved, which will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23, and the other is for the unsaved, which will be at the end of the MK when the living unbelievers from the MK will be fried.  What occurs next is the GWT judgment, and all unbelievers will get their physical bodies back to attend that judgment.  Then, Rev 20:15 tells us that they will be cast into the LOF.  The LOF is also called the "second death".  Should be obvious that the phrase refers to their physical bodies.  They get to die physically twice when cast into the LOF.

You said:  "I think that we can agree that the doctrine of going to heaven when we die is very shaky."

I couldn't disagree more.  I've shown you the verses where souls are IN heaven and talking.

"Many scriptures make much more sense when men are found in Hades after death."

Yes, all unbelievers are STILL THERE, awaiting the GWT judgment.  But Eph 4 is clear about Jesus leading a procession to heaven when He visited Hades.

"And for so great a doctrine there should be a wealth of scripture. But there is not a single direct statement."

I've shown you.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm going to "cut and paste" to respond, since I prefer addressing individual points rather than just at the end of long post.

You said:  "The word "firsfruits" means firstfruits. It has nothing to do with what type of body one has in resurrection. The Bible does not make a distinction between dead bodies coming to life and "resurrection". One is the other."

That is an opinion.  Since Acts 26:23 CLEARLY notes that Jesus "was the FIRST to rise from the dead", how can that be true since the Bible notes MANY who came back from the dead?  And we know that at the Second Advent, when all believers will receive their resurrection bodies, it is simply impossible to assume that those mentioned in the OT or during Jesus' ministry that any of them received resurrection bodies.

Then you said, "Acts 26:23 presents us both with a challenge. All three Old Testament cases of resurrection, and that of Lazarus clearly show the person to have been dead for some time. Their resurrections are so placed in history that it makes Acts 26:23 patently untrue IF you take the meaning of "protos" as "first in time". But all problems disappear if we use the meaning "first in rank or importance". This alludes to Christ's deity and to His preeminence. He was "slain from the foundation of the world" is correct because He was both Man and God. So also "before Abraham I am", and "He BECAME author of an eternal salvation" (Heb.5:9). This very difficult sentence is solved only by His eternal nature. And so Is Act 26:23."

All you are doing is trying to explain away Acts 26:23 from the previous returns to life.  What the Bible doesn't say is that any of those OT or NT return to life accounts included the glorified body.  That is your problem.  All of the accounts died again.  btw, the Bible doesn't say that no one can die twice anyway.  

Then you said, "In the section 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 THREE resurrections are shown - not TWO as you maintain. There is Christ's, then, as we know, quite some time goes by until "those who are his" are resurrected. Then a time of His REIGNING and SUBDUING must go by but death is not yet subdued. Magog is an enemy and him and his hoards are killed - adding to the power and numbers of the dead. But then suddenly, amid all this death, death is destroyed. If one man was left dead, death could not be said to be destroyed. So the MUST have been a final resurrection after Magog. And truly, Revelation 20 reveals a grand resurrection 1,000 years AFTER "those who are his"."

There are not 3 as you claim.  v.23 is crystal clear.  Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified body.  And then, "when He comes" we read, "those who belong to Him".  That is a reference to TWO resurrections involving glorified bodies.  First is Jesus Himself, and second is "those who belong to Him".  That means ALL believers, in spite of any naysayers.

Your comment about the MK is irrelevant, since Rev 20 is very clear about the FIRST of two resurrections will occur at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns.  The next resurrection is that of all unbelievers, and that one occurs at the end of the MK.

Then you said:  " This section informs the "sorrowing" Thessalonians of something. The cause of the sorrow is that they thought that by dying, the dead saints would NOT be in this company of triumphant saints. The early Christians did not suffer from the Roman Catholic myth that one goes to heaven at death. The sorrow was that Paul had taught what Jude reported Enoch as saying, that is, when Christ returned from the sky, He would have in His company angels and saints. The dead saints were in the grave bodily and their souls were in Sheol (or Hades), so the living Thessalonians thought that they would miss this triumphant arrival on earth from the sky."

Your comment about the "sorrowing Thessalonians" misses Paul's point.  They weren't concerned about the dead saints.  They were concerned that THEY themselves had already missed the event.  2 Thess 2:1-3.  Then you contradicted your commnt about the Thess church being concerned about the dead saints missing out by your last comment about they themselves missing out.  Seems confused here.

Then you said:  "Paul's discourse in 1st Thessalonians 4 is not to teach the mechanism of rapture. It is to teach how dead men get to be with the Lord when He comes from the sky. If the dead were already in heaven, then where was the "ignorance", and why the "sorrow"? And what "comfort" was needed?"

Since I disagree with your view about where the souls of dead saints are, there is nothing more t0 say.  Paul was teaching what would happen when Jesus returns, with all the dead saints, who are already in heaven, as Rev 6 proves.  They receive their glorified bodies before those who are alive and remain.

Then you said:  "Added to this, other recorded resurrections are the same."  

Not sure of the context of this comment, but what is clear is that NO ONE receives a glorified body until the Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation to reign in the MK.

Then you said:  "1. Christ says that he Gates of Hades will not prevail against building the Church. That is, it presents a problem
2.David's BODY is in a grave, but David's SOUL is still in Hades 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus, and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:29, 34)
3. The dead are naked (2nd Cor.5). How shall they appear in heaven?
4. The dead are unclean. How shall they appear before God?
5. The dead RISE
6. Jesus has preeminence in ALL things. If we do not follow what His experience was, we have preeminence
7. there is no scripture to maintain a mass exodus from Hades to heaven
8. In Ephesians 4 "Leading Captivity captive" means; (i) Captivity is still a captivity, (ii) this captivity has itself become a captive, and (iii) there is no record of movement of the original captivity"

I've already addressed your error about where David's body is.  

1.  There is no problem, but I get it that you think so.

2. No.  David's soul is in heaven, as Rev 6 proves clearly.

3. "dead naked" only refers to being without the "tent", which is the physical body.

4. Refers to a rotting corpse, not souls.

5. Their bodies rise.  1 Thess 4 clearly shows the dead believers coming with Christ at His return.

6. ?

7. yes, there is.  Eph 4:7,8 is clear enough.

You said:  "I find no scripture that says dead men are in heaven in Revelation 6."

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 

10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

You can see what you want, but "souls under the altar" isn't about the earth.  This is how John opened chapter 6 - I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”   In the context from ch 4 to ch 6, John is in heaven.  So he was seeing the souls of dead saints.

"The Tabernacle that Moses made had TWO altars - one in the Outer Court for sacrificing and one in the Holy Place for incense. The altar of sacrifice in the Outer court was plated in brass, the altar of Incense was plated in gold. Heaven dos not need a Brazen altar because there is no redemption for heaven. The golden altar may not have blood on it after the dedication. The altar of sacrifice must be on the earth."

I don't find any of this to be relevant about Moses' tabernacle.  You'll have to explain yourself on that.

You said:  "I think that such a statement should have scripture attached, especially when John 5:39 says that the resurrection of the damned is a "resurrection"."

Exactly!  There are just 2 resurrections of humans.  One is for the saved, which will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23, and the other is for the unsaved, which will be at the end of the MK when the living unbelievers from the MK will be fried.  What occurs next is the GWT judgment, and all unbelievers will get their physical bodies back to attend that judgment.  Then, Rev 20:15 tells us that they will be cast into the LOF.  The LOF is also called the "second death".  Should be obvious that the phrase refers to their physical bodies.  They get to die physically twice when cast into the LOF.

You said:  "I think that we can agree that the doctrine of going to heaven when we die is very shaky."

I couldn't disagree more.  I've shown you the verses where souls are IN heaven and talking.

"Many scriptures make much more sense when men are found in Hades after death."

Yes, all unbelievers are STILL THERE, awaiting the GWT judgment.  But Eph 4 is clear about Jesus leading a procession to heaven when He visited Hades.

"And for so great a doctrine there should be a wealth of scripture. But there is not a single direct statement."

I've shown you.

Fair enough. We've both had or say. May the reader judge.

Go well bro.

By the way, I'm no IT buff, but if you select any section of posted text, you get a little pop-up that says "Quote selection". If you click "quote selection" only that which you selected will appear where the cursor was. You can then answer it as a quote. Then repeat it and the next selected area will be on the same answer. Just make sure your cursor is in the right place on the answer mask. You can practice it with my last posting. If you make a mistake I'll just ignore it.

Edited November 11, 2022 by AdHoc

[FreeGrace]

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Fair enough. We've both had or say. May the reader judge.

Go well bro.

By the way, I'm no IT buff, but if you select any section of posted text, you get a little pop-up that says "Quote selection". If you click "quote selection" only that which you selected will appear where the cursor was. You can then answer it as a quote. Then repeat it and the next selected area will be on the same answer. Just make sure your cursor is in the right place on the answer mask. You can practice it with my last posting. If you make a mistake I'll just ignore it.

Thanks for the valuable info.  btw, I see that you edited your post.  I don't see any button for editing.

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks for the valuable info.  btw, I see that you edited your post.  I don't see any button for editing.

Top right hand has three dots. Click on them for some options.