Dennis1209 Posted November 5, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,470 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,379 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Vine Abider said: Regarding the woman, she is usually thought of as either mother Mary or Israel, with a few saying she is all of God's people. Most, but not all, commentators will say it is Jesus Himself who is being birthed. The Mary notion is rather easy to dismiss, because Revelation is regarding things "about to take place" and the time of going into the wilderness doesn't line up with Mary fleeing into Egypt (it does line up with 3.5 years tribulation period). As for the woman being Israel, there may be some apparent merit, but again, the visions given to John are supposed to be concerning future events. As I said earlier, to me, it may be more accurate to say she represents all God's people (like the New Jerusalem). As for the male child, we could apply the same reasoning - these things are meant for the a future time, that is, from when John was given the vision. If the vision of the woman and her child are future, as it seems to suggest with her being nourished for "1,260 days" (or 3.5 years), then this could not be Jesus (or at least not Jesus Himself - clarification coming). Many would point to saying this child "will rule the nations with an iron rod" as being Jesus. However, the Lord tells the overcomers in the letter to Thyatira that they will rule the nations in the same way (Rev 2:27). Then after Satan is cast out in Rev 12:9, a loud voice says in Rev 12:10, "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down." Then it says about them in verse 11: "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb . . ." So I'd like to suggest that the male child is those who overcome, who have learned to let Christ (the real Overcomer) in them, fully live through them. This makes sense if you think about what the Lord's mission was in His first coming - restoring man to his right relationship with God and everything, which He did through His death and resurrection. After His resurrection He said, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Me." Christ was God in the flesh, but He was also a Man, taking the proper rule and authority away from the devil. He then gives this back to us, when He came to live in us, right? Therefore the culmination of man taking his rightful place results in giving the boot to Satan out of heaven, which Michael and his then angels enforced. As Romans 8:19 says, "For all creation is waiting eagerly the revelation of the sons of God." Pertaining to biblical scripture, there is a saying that has a kernel of truth to it. It goes something like this: Five men can read the exact same thing and come up with nine different opinions. 😊 As always, I’m a simple Bible student who seldom claims to have the correct hermeneutic hygiene. One of the purposes I participate in this forum is to discuss everything biblical, debate, and learn a thing or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted November 6, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: Ok I got what you are asking... Jesus is telling the disciples that they stand Saved as they are because they believe...and they should continously believe and must be found in the faith at the time of their death... Jesus said that because he knew some who believe at first because of persecution they will go back to their mother's non Christian religion. It is similar with those who do not believe at first...as they are with the denial they stand condemn, but they can always believe before and any time before their death and die with the faith of Jesus Christ in their heart...then they are saved, they died saved... The end for Stephen was when he died...He died with the testimony of Jesus.. And so it is for anyone of us we believe in Jesus now and at the time of our death we must still believe... But you said this verse was fulfilled before christ died. According to your own words, this would have nothing to do with stephan or anyone else. Only the apostles and according to your own interpretation of this chapter, the end came and they were saved before christ even died. You said this was already fulfilled before the crucifixion. Mathew 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. Personally, I don't think you realize who Jesus is actually talking to. I'll say this,when those who recieve the holy spirit in Israel before the time of the end, they will take it to heart. There is one group of people in Israel who follow Jesus's ever word. He speaking directly to them. Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. When they go throughout israel saying the kingdom of God is at hand, it litterally will be. Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” Edited November 6, 2022 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted November 6, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2022 15 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: It seems that what Jesus said to his disciples in Mathew 10: 5-6 is taken way out of context... Mathew 10:5-6 should be considered with the following context as this event happened before the Cross of Jesus and for that matter before the day of Penticost. In the day of Penticost which is after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the disciples preached forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ name. They preached Jesus as the Christ of God, they preached Jesus as the Son of God whom God had raised from the dead and has made him Lord...as the Messiah from God. (Judas was not included among the other disciples, because he had died about 50 days before the Day of Penticost. In Mathew 10:5-6 Jesus is sending his twelve disciples and Judas was among them. And this is what Jesus told them. He said to them (at that time before the Cross that his ministry is within a restricted window and this is understood when Jesus said to them to go to the Lost sheep of Israel and at that specific time he restricted them to remained within the boundaries of Judea and not to go to Gentiles or the Samaritans..and suggestively not to enter the Synagogues. Jesus told them to go to the lost children of Israel within the tribe of Judah. Jerusalem was in Benjamin's tribe. And this is what Jesus had asked them to do: to heal the sick and cast out the evil spirit and he gave them authority to heal all manes of disease and to say that the Kingdom of God is near...is been been announced with the miracles from God to them. At that time the disciples did not have the testimony that Jesus died from the forgiveness of our sins...they did not preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to no one, they only healed the people and said the kingdom of Heaven is very near. Mathew 10:5,6 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans 6.Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. @Shilohsfoal, Above is my first post, and I posted the scripture from Mathew 10: 5,6. And in the first paragraph of my post I said that the event described in verses 5 and 6, which is Jesus talking to his disciples took place before his death on the Cross. This is a fact derived from the factual events that followed in the next chapters. It is a factual truth that this happened Jesus sending his disciples to heal the sick in the villages of Judea it is correctly dated as some day before his death on the Cross.. This is all I have commented that this happened on a day way before the day Jesus died on the Cross...make it simple. The disciples did not preach the testimony of Jesus at that time, they did not preached forgiveness of sins in the blood of Jesus this very specific time as it was a day before the death of Jesus on the Cross. Is there something that you want to talk about... Because I posted this in response to one of your post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted November 6, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.47 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: Mathew 10:5,6 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans 6.Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. @Shilohsfoal, Above is my first post, and I posted the scripture from Mathew 10: 5,6. And in the first paragraph of my post I said that the event described in verses 5 and 6, which is Jesus talking to his disciples took place before his death on the Cross. This is a fact derived from the factual events that followed in the next chapters. It is a factual truth that this happened Jesus sending his disciples to heal the sick in the villages of Judea it is correctly dated as some day before his death on the Cross.. This is all I have commented that this happened on a day way before the day Jesus died on the Cross...make it simple. The disciples did not preach the testimony of Jesus at that time, they did not preached forgiveness of sins in the blood of Jesus this very specific time as it was a day before the death of Jesus on the Cross. Is there something that you want to talk about... Because I posted this in response to one of your post... So we are clear, the end has not come, and these two verses have not been fulfilled. Mathew 10:22-23 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. I've not said anything about verses 5-6 so I'm not sure why you brought those two verses into the matter. Verses 22-23 are yet unfulfilled but will be fulfilled at the time of the end when the Son of Man comes. For the final 42 months before his coming, the disciples in Israel will be preaching the kingdom of God is at hand. They will be persecuted throughout israel including Jerusalem. They will not be able to buy anything during these 42 months so money is useless to them. Jesus knew they wouldn't be able to buy or sell during this time period. Mathew 10:9 Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— Edited November 6, 2022 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted November 6, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2022 16 hours ago, Uriah said: Also, to me it looks like another of re-telling as is notable in Genesis for example, meaning one event is re-stated. Rev 12:6- And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:14- And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. In Genesis the Serpent heard the news about this woman which is going to birth to the one who is going to defeat him and stripped him from his authority... Bruised your head, as within the meaning by looking into the example that Jesus is the head of something, is the head of the church...the people who assemble in his name... With the Cross we begin to have the people who assemble in Jesus name and the people who do not assemble in his name..regardless of any deferent background... Jesus is moving into all the Nations of the world without any exceptions to take people for himself. The first Nation to suffer casualties is the Nation of Israel...and the rest of the Nations of the world suffered the lost of their people unto Jesus in their due time... That it was something new that begin to happen with Jesus for the first time... The people inspite of their background had to decide for themselves to which assembly to belong to. Whom they want to be their headship. In Genesis 3: the Lord acknowledged only one headship over all mankind the headship of the Serpent, who took the first couple and with them he took all their offerings. The headship of the Serpent is evident at the time when the people died... At the time of death only the Serpent was there to take the people...the Lord did not content with him, it was his right upon the human race... When Abel die it was one for the Serpent and none for the Lord. Because Spiritually Abel was dead...even thought Abel was a righteous man, Spiritually he was dead because he inherited that from his Father Adam...Adam had fallen because of his disobedience, he had fallen from Life unto death... The Serpent works together with Death and Hades... When (as in our example) Abel died physically his Spirit man was in death inherited from Adam... a righteous man... In this example we see that the righteousness of man it cannot remove the inherited death in man...or the righteousness of man cannot give Life to man... Even if it was possible to give Life to man we will still have a big problem, with the first disobedience man will fall unto death again and there are other problems... The point is that Man needed a Life that if he disobeys God he still remains in that Life... Man needed to have a Life that even if he sins he remains in the Life or he does not fall unto death... The Life of Christ...not the Life of Adam but the Life of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who takes away our sins, because he paid the penalty for our sins with his own life..to died on the Cross. And shed his blood for the forgiveness of our sins. In Genesis 3: the seed of the woman will crushed the headship of the Serpent to take mankind by DEFAULT because of the disobedience of Adam and the mankind born within Adam's disobedience... The Serpent's right to take mankind by DEFAULT at the time of their death...will come to the end at the time of the death of Jesus on the Cross..." you will bruised his heel, but he will cruch your headship over mankind. We read how the Serpent used Herod to kill the seed of the woman...the Serpent attempting to prevent his coming doomed. But in revelation 12 we see a new picture that the devil tried to attack and kill the woman appointed to give birth to the Holy child... How this battle was taking place in the unseen world and how God had protected Mary from all those attacks of the Serpent...we see in revelation 12 that the Serpent had targeted the Mary the woman who carry the promise seed who will crushed the headship of the Serpent.... Jesus in revelation three said: it has been accomplished I have the Keys of Death and Hades...earlier in chapter one Jesus said " I have the Key of David". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted November 6, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 201 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,429 Content Per Day: 6.23 Reputation: 2,283 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted November 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: But in revelation 12 we see a new picture that the devil tried to attack and kill the woman appointed to give birth to the Holy child... How this battle was taking place in the unseen world and how God had protected Mary from all those attacks of the Serpent...we see in revelation 12 that the Serpent had targeted the Mary the woman who carry the promise seed who will crushed the headship of the Serpent.... Jesus in revelation three said: it has been accomplished I have the Keys of Death and Hades...earlier in chapter one Jesus said " I have the Key of David". How is the woman in Rev 12 Mary, that is, clothed with the sun, standing on the moon and holding the 12 stars? Where in scripture is Mary ever depicted like that? And when did Mary go into the wilderness for that period of time which is stated, which is the exact time of the last 3.5 years? (plus, regarding the account of Joseph, Mary & Jesus fleeing to Egypt in Matthew 2:13-23 . . . the time doesn't line up with 3.5 years, and I don't think Egypt is ever referred to as a "wilderness" any where else) And Revelation is a vision of that which is about to happen, not what was in the past. (see Rev 1:1) The birth of Jesus is past, even in John's day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted November 7, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) @Vine Abider, This is revelation ch.12. NIV, it consist of more than one section. *Rev 1:19 niv, 19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. *These words were spoken to John when he was very old. *The what is now...it must been seen that it was when those words were spoken to John....And what will take place later, or very soon. For us who read what the Angel said to John after more than two thousand years then everything that is written in the book of Revelation must have taken place long time ago... * Rev 4:1 niv. After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” The Woman and the Dragon 12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragonbwith seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.he He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Edited November 7, 2022 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted November 7, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 201 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,429 Content Per Day: 6.23 Reputation: 2,283 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted November 7, 2022 7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: The Woman and the Dragon 12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragonbwith seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. The question is, how could this be Mary? (see my earlier post for detailed questions to that end) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted November 7, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 Not settled on the meaning of this: Rev 12- 16- And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. I have thought that it was perhaps something to do with Christians worldwide in an outcry or other effort. Or, even though the timing seems to be off, a connection to: Rev 11:13- And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted November 7, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,129 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,858 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2022 I think knowing the order of the things written in Revelation is necessary to understand much of what was written comparing it to possible modern happenings of today. I do believe that the vision of the woman is a marker that happened on September 23, 2017. I do believe it is the start of things to happen in Revelation 12 and on. I'm just not sure if that's the start of all the things spoken of in Revelation starting with the horsemen or other things. I don't want to discuss all that for I spend too much time arguing with myself to let any of you join in the conversation. But I do believe the war in heaven started on that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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