The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[Diaste]

As noted many times the coming of Jesus and the gathering, preceded by GT, can only occur after the A of D.

Mark 13

So when you see the abomination of desolationa standing where it should not be 

(let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

17How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not occur in the winter. 

19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 

20If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

21At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.

24But in those days,

after that tribulation:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

25the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’c

26At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds

with great power and glory.d 27

And He will send out the angels to gather His elect

from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matt 24

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a 

described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance.

26So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c 

And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds.

So in as clear language as can possibly be mustered, that anyone can understand, the order is:

A of D, GT, Jesus coming, the gathering of the elect. No other order is possible. There is no pre-gathering gathering. 

It should be noted that Jesus told everyone in advance. "See, I have told you in advance." That can only refer to believers as the unbeliever isn't going to heed an advance warning. So how would these with the advance warning use that to avoid the false prophets and signs and wonders if they aren't there? Seems like there would be no point to such an advance notice if it wasn't needed. 

The whole world will follow after the beast, buying into the power and authority of the beast, through the lying signs and  false wonders; only the elect will not be deceived while experiencing the signs and wonders of the FP and the beast. 

Under any flavor of pretrib this won't be possible if there is no elect here. 

The GWT judgement is not for the unsaved only. This is a false perception of what happens at the GWT.

Matt 25

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

This can only be the GWT as we see the sheep on the right enter into eternity with God; "‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

This isn't the 'rapture' of any stripe. 

Rev 20

"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20

Here it's only "if anyone was found whose name was not written"; it's not deterministic but based on "And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books." This mirrors Matt 25 as the good deeds are seen as righteousness. 

How is that GT has been happening from the 1st century but none of the persecuted have been saved from it through 'rapture'?

That's the big deal with the white, western, modern 'church' isn't it? We don't get persecuted cause we're so perfect in all our ways that persecution will never come near us, that's for others not as righteous as us. 

That's the pretrib de jour doctrine, right? We are taken out before it even begins. Yet all the evidence points in another direction. Christian brothers and sisters are persecuted and die every day for their testimony of Jesus; up to 90,000 a year, the very thing pretrib claims that believers in Christ avoid. 

Any Pretrib Rapture is Poppycock.

 

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 11/29/2022 at 7:40 AM, iamlamad said:

On 11/28/2022 at 10:44 PM, not an echo said:

Hello missmuffet,

This thread is kind of a companion to my thread, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/).  On my part, and in answer to your question, when we differentiate between the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet, much in Scripture and The Revelation comes better into focus and many interesting truths are more easily seen---especially the truth of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture of the Church.

I think what you are saying is, one error in understanding Revelation leads to many more.

Hello iamlamad,

That's not really what I'm saying, but, we know that sometimes this can be the case.  When it comes to not differentiating between the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet, my position would be that this is the case indeed.

[not an echo]

On 11/29/2022 at 8:52 AM, iamlamad said:

On 11/28/2022 at 10:33 PM, not an echo said:

More than anything, my position is simply that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet heralds this period.  For ease of understanding, I have come to refer to it as I do, since it entails through to "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18), or the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  But, I can also certainly plug into what you are saying concerning it being "Christ reigning as 'King of the earth' time"! 

I think you missed something. 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying...

the nations were angry,
thy wrath is come,
the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
 that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Keep in mind, these are all Aorist verbs—not inflected to show any tense at all.

God's wrath began earlier, and is continuing here.
The judgment of some of the dead will not take place until after the 1000 years.
The rewards will be seen in Revelation 20: people seen judging.
The destruction of the sinners started with the 1/3 killed and will continue.

What they SAID was a prophecy of past, present and FUTURE events. 

Concerning your reply as a whole, whatever else they said, my point is that the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that continues through to "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18), meaning, the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  Said another way, and as I've shown previously, the 7th Trumpet heralds a time that is expounded in chapters 12-20.  Moreover, the time that is heralded by the 7th Trumpet results in complete closure for this world---which is quite significant (a huge understatement).  Not for sure if you have noticed, but this is my last proposition (of 36) of my totally different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

On 11/29/2022 at 8:52 AM, iamlamad said:

I think you missed something. 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying...

the nations were angry,
thy wrath is come,
the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
 that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Keep in mind, these are all Aorist verbs—not inflected to show any tense at all.

God's wrath began earlier, and is continuing here.
The judgment of some of the dead will not take place until after the 1000 years.
The rewards will be seen in Revelation 20: people seen judging.
The destruction of the sinners started with the 1/3 killed and will continue.

What they SAID was a prophecy of past, present and FUTURE events. 

As you can see, I copied your reply again, but put four of your sentences in bold.  In hopes of helping you to see my position a little better...

Concerning the first sentence (i.e., "God's wrath..."), my position is that the period of "the great day of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17) began with the opening of the 6th Seal, at least "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) and 3-1/2 years (Rev. 11:3-14) earlier, "and is continuing here."  This may be your exact position as well.

Concerning your second sentence, my position would be that the ultimate judgment of ALL of the UNSAVED "will not take place until after the 1000 years."

Concerning your third sentence, I'm thinking that we may be seeing this the same.  I speak to this in my fifth opening post of this thread.  Here is a quick link to it (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/285390-the-seventh-trumpet-and-the-period-it-heralds/?do=findComment&comment=3582384).  I would like to encourage you (and all, of course) to note especially the last paragraph of that post---something from my statement of faith that relates.

Concerning the last of your statements that I put in bold (i.e., "The destruction..."), I'm not really for sure where you are coming from with this.

[not an echo]

On 11/29/2022 at 1:12 PM, missmuffet said:

On 11/28/2022 at 10:44 PM, not an echo said:

Hello missmuffet,

This thread is kind of a companion to my thread, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/).  On my part, and in answer to your question, when we differentiate between the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet, much in Scripture and The Revelation comes better into focus and many interesting truths are more easily seen---especially the truth of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture of the Church.

God is going to do what He is going to do. No changing it. We can have all kind of speculations. 

Hello missmuffet,

On my part, my endeavor is to correctly interpret what God has revealed to us that "He is going to do."  What about you?

[missmuffet]

55 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Hello missmuffet,

On my part, my endeavor is to correctly interpret what God has revealed to us that "He is going to do."  What about you?

The true literal Word of God is what He wants those on Worthy to see. We are responsible as Christians for posting the Correct theology. No false teaching. 

[not an echo]

On 12/3/2022 at 5:41 AM, Diaste said:

As noted many times the coming of Jesus and the gathering, preceded by GT, can only occur after the A of D.

Hello Diaste,

Just some thoughts in response...

First of all, my understanding of your use of "GT" is that you are referring to Daniel's 70th Week, or the last half of it.  As I have indicated many times, it is unfortunate that the time of Daniel's 70th Week has become almost exclusively to be referred to similarly, as this can obscure one's ability to see with clarity what has been revealed to us concerning the last days.  I would submit that there has been scarcely a time since the fall of man that has been without great tribulation.  What Jesus said in Matthew 24:21, appropriately emphasized, is this:  "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  I speak more to this in my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

For the purpose of further clarifying my own conclusions on the timing of the rapture, according to what has come to be some popular understandings, I could agree with your statement less the "and the gathering" part.  Based upon all we find in Scripture, it will be at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) that the gathering will occur (Matt. 24:31).  Understanding this involves differentiating between Christ's Sign Appearance and His Second Advent.  If we continue to look only or mostly at Jesus' Olivet Discourse, making this distinction can be more difficult.  But, with The Revelation, it is more easily seen, as Christ's Sign Appearance happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:14-16), and His Second Advent does not occur until over seven years later (Rev. 19:11-16).  Also important to note is that whether it be for His Sign Appearance (for the gathering) or His Second Advent (for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign), either involves His coming.  For the former, His coming will not be to stay, but for a "sign" appearance.  For the latter, His coming will be to stay, and that, for a thousand years!

The above aligns with Paul's teachings.  Consider (with my comments), first of all from II Thessalonians 2...

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (for His Sign Appearance), and by our gathering together unto Him (at that time),

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (His Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (cp. Matt. 24:15;  Rev. 11:1)

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He (the Holy Spirit) who now letteth will let, until He (the Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way (at the time of the gathering).

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (His Second Advent):

Then, from I Thessalonians 4...

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout (at His Sign Appearance), with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (gathered by the angels), to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And then, continuing into I Thessalonians 5...

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night (after the opening of the 6th Seal and Christ's Sign Appearance).

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape (or be gathered).

On 12/3/2022 at 5:41 AM, Diaste said:

So in as clear language as can possibly be mustered, that anyone can understand, the order is:

A of D, GT, Jesus coming, the gathering of the elect. No other order is possible. There is no pre-gathering gathering. 

It should be noted that Jesus told everyone in advance. "See, I have told you in advance." That can only refer to believers as the unbeliever isn't going to heed an advance warning. So how would these with the advance warning use that to avoid the false prophets and signs and wonders if they aren't there? Seems like there would be no point to such an advance notice if it wasn't needed. 

The whole world will follow after the beast, buying into the power and authority of the beast, through the lying signs and  false wonders; only the elect will not be deceived while experiencing the signs and wonders of the FP and the beast. 

Under any flavor of pretrib this won't be possible if there is no elect here. 

The GWT judgement is not for the unsaved only. This is a false perception of what happens at the GWT.

Concerning your opening statements, on the surface, I can see why you would say what you are saying.  But, there is more revealed to us in Scripture than what Jesus said to His disciples in His Olivet Discourse, and we must seek an understanding that will align with everything.  The position of your statement, "A of D, GT, Jesus coming, the gathering of the elect" does not allow for Christ's Sign Appearance, at which time "the gathering of the elect" actually takes place.

Concerning your third thru fifth paragraphs and Jesus' words, "Behold, I have told you before" (Matt. 24:25), the 144,000 and all those who by faith do not succumb to following the beast belong in the category of the elect.

Concerning your last paragraph, at the time of the "GWT judgement",  the first resurrection will have already occurred, a thousand years prior (Rev. 20:5-6).  Whatever is being believed about the "GWT judgement",  the tenor of Scripture relating to the resurrections is that none of the just will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust.  Conversely, none of the unjust will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just. 

On 12/3/2022 at 5:41 AM, Diaste said:

Matt 25

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

This can only be the GWT as we see the sheep on the right enter into eternity with God; "‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

This isn't the 'rapture' of any stripe. 

Concerning your next to last paragraph (i.e., "This can only be the GWT..."), my position would be that what you show Jesus speaking of concerns a judgment that He will carry out at the beginning of His Millennial Reign, not at the end.

Concerning your last statement, I agree.

On 12/3/2022 at 5:41 AM, Diaste said:

How is that GT has been happening from the 1st century but none of the persecuted have been saved from it through 'rapture'?

That's the big deal with the white, western, modern 'church' isn't it? We don't get persecuted cause we're so perfect in all our ways that persecution will never come near us, that's for others not as righteous as us. 

That's the pretrib de jour doctrine, right? We are taken out before it even begins. Yet all the evidence points in another direction. Christian brothers and sisters are persecuted and die every day for their testimony of Jesus; up to 90,000 a year, the very thing pretrib claims that believers in Christ avoid. 

Any Pretrib Rapture is Poppycock.

Concerning your opening question, I can't say that I'm for sure what you are getting at.  But, in the context of the rest that you are saying, it seems that you are asking something like this:  If Christians haven't been delivered from the great tribulation and persecution of this present time---"through 'rapture'"---why then would any (or we) be spared from going through Daniel's 70th Week?  If this is what you are asking, an answer that might be easier to get is that those who are already saved at the time of the gathering will be being delivered from the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment.  From this angle, it can be seen that the deliverance wrought by the gathering is less about the saved being delivered from "great tribulation" and more about the saved being delivered from the period in which the Lord's judgment will take place.

Those who are already saved prior to the beginning of the last days' DOTL judgment will be those who make up the present tense Church at that time.  This means those who are saved at that time, or those who are a part of the Church at that time, will be delivered just prior to the beginning of "the great day (or period) of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17).  It is not God's desire that any who are saved be upon the earth during the time of His last days' DOTL judgment.  But, all that will ultimately get saved do not do so before this begins.  There will be the 144,000 who will be saved the very day it begins, because of their seeing the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and their realization that Jesus was their Messiah indeed.  And, as we agree, there will be those who by faith will reject the beast, or Antichrist.  As far as Daniel's 70th Week, this is not synonymous with the DOTL judgment, but this seven year period will take place during that time.  I have sometimes thought that pre-Day of the Lord would be a better phrase to use for any "pre" position, as it is really more precise.

The 144,000 and all who are left who do not end up following the beast during that time will find themselves being a part of that time.  And, tribulation wise, there will be an escalation to a time of great tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to [that] time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  Because of God's grace and the way we have seen Him work in the lives of those (and us!) who have experienced the like, we know that these will be alright---even if martyred.  I think of John the Baptist.  He was at rest in the Portals of Glory before his severed head came to rest!  God knows how to take care of His children!  We just need to learn better how to keep our eyes upon Him.  Like Daniel, or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, or Stephen, etc.

Concerning your second paragraph, this does not fit any mentality that I have ever had---even when I was accepting the common pre-trib view.  In Matthew 5, in His Sermon on the Mount, what Jesus told the multitudes at that time extends to us all...

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Concerning your last statement, I certainly disagree with the choice you made for your first word.   And that last word?  Hmmm.  I'm thinking that it would be a bit more brotherly to avoid choosing a word like this to describe a position, the bottom line of which is so thoroughly supported by Scripture.  I hope you did not choose it with overmuch delight.

Edited February 6, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 12/12/2022 at 1:40 PM, missmuffet said:

On 12/12/2022 at 12:44 PM, not an echo said:

Hello missmuffet,

On my part, my endeavor is to correctly interpret what God has revealed to us that "He is going to do."  What about you?

The true literal Word of God is what He wants those on Worthy to see. We are responsible as Christians for posting the Correct theology. No false teaching. 

I agree.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So..."For then...." That's a idea that GT has a beginning, a cause or follows an event. This can be read, "Next." The Greek says, "Gar tote..."

"gar: for, indeed (a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation)"

"tote: then, at that time"

The GT is a continuation at that time. It's not an open ended general condition of the plight of mankind in this context within the prophecy of Matt 24. 

It's not a GT which follows an immediate flight, the lament of nursing mothers and children nor the winter or sabbath flight; those are a result of the A of D and a flight from the A of D and the coming GT.

Jesus literally says "GT follows the A of D which Daniel the prophet speaks about.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

So how do you explain "For at that time..." At what time? The Fall? The death of Abel? The Flood? The Tower of Babel? The Exodus? We could say GT began at any number of time/space moments should we choose.

Jesus says it's after the A of D. Only one has occurred and that was in 167 BC. 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

If this is what you are asking, an answer that might be easier to get is that those who are already saved at the time of the gathering will be being delivered from the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment.  From this angle, it can be seen that the deliverance wrought by the gathering is less about the saved being delivered from "great tribulation" and more about the saved being delivered from the period in which the Lord's judgment will take place.

Those who are already saved prior to the beginning of the last days' DOTL judgment will be those who make up the present tense Church at that time.  This means those who are saved at that time, or those who are a part of the Church at that time, will be delivered just prior to the beginning of "the great day (or period) of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17).  It is not God's desire that any who are saved be upon the earth during the time of His last days' DOTL judgment.  But, all that will ultimately get saved do not do so before this begins.  There will be the 144,000 who will be saved the very day it begins, because of their seeing the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and their realization that Jesus was their Messiah indeed.  And, as we agree, there will be those who by faith will reject the beast, or Antichrist.  As far as Daniel's 70th Week, this is not synonymous with the DOTL judgment, but this seven year period will take place during that time.  I have sometimes thought that pre-Day of the Lord would be a better phrase to use for any "pre" position, as it is really more precise.

Again...so close. It's clear in scripture we do not avoid GT but we do avoid the wrath of God. The issue as I see it the definitions. Really, you are almost there.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, this does not fit any mentality that I have ever had---even when I was accepting the common pre-trib view.  In Matthew 5, in His Sermon on the Mount, what Jesus told the multitudes at that time extends to us all...

Sure. The history of the doctrine is born of arrogance and desire however. The Jezebel Spirit in the church is very real and it's in this particular doctrine in my opinion.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last statement, I certainly disagree with the choice you made for your first word.   And that last word?  Hmmm.  I'm thinking that it would be a bit more brotherly to avoid choosing a word like this to describe a position, the bottom line of which is so thoroughly supported by Scripture.  I hope you did not choose it with overmuch delight.

It is what it is. I didn't say the bottom line was incorrect, it's the timing that's jumbled and incoherent. 

I have spent many decades looking into this and there is little accuracy concerning timing in any of the several pretrib ideas or the other rapture doctrines save one:

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c

 and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The only possible timing and order that's valid no matter what anyone says. This is what Jesus told us will happen and when, and it all begins with the A of D.

Without the A of D there is no GT.

Hence, every doctrine is wrong unless it aligns with Matt 24:15-31. 

Poppycock is fitting. 

[Uriah]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:32 AM, Diaste said:

Hence, every doctrine is wrong unless it aligns with Matt 24:15-31.

Hi Diaste

Jesus, in referring to the Daniel prophecy, tells of cataclysms. Now, we must determine whether we say THAT is a period of years, months etc. for the cataclysms.

He also says that it will be like the time of Noah/Lot. This conveys the idea that they didn't know what was about to happen. The cataclysm stage IS shown in the most detail in Revelation. 

Some will say it is over a period of 3.5 or 7 yrs. Rev. 11 shows the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days and are killed. Before they are on their feet again the whole world is looking at their dead bodies for 3.5 days.

That selection seems to have not been experiencing cataclysms. However it is after 1260 days of the witnesses. And it is noted that the beast continues for 42 months, and is captured alive at the time of Jesus' return to fight the armies in Rev. 19.  That beast, who makes war with the witnesses and kills them, appears to already be in power at that time as well. 

This is why I believe that the witnesses and the beast are acting fin time periods that overlap.

I take the occupation of Jerusalem (and of course Israel) will be the beginning of the two witnesses followed shortly by the imposition of the rule of the beast. So the days of the witnesses will end and the beast will last a bit longer until his time is up and the cataclysm will likely IMO start immediately after the witness are taken up.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Uriah
changed "No" to "Now"

[not an echo]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So..."For then...." That's a idea that GT has a beginning, a cause or follows an event. This can be read, "Next." The Greek says, "Gar tote..."

"gar: for, indeed (a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation)"

"tote: then, at that time"

The GT is a continuation at that time. It's not an open ended general condition of the plight of mankind in this context within the prophecy of Matt 24. 

It's not a GT which follows an immediate flight, the lament of nursing mothers and children nor the winter or sabbath flight; those are a result of the A of D and a flight from the A of D and the coming GT.

Jesus literally says "GT follows the A of D which Daniel the prophet speaks about.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

So how do you explain "For at that time..." At what time? The Fall? The death of Abel? The Flood? The Tower of Babel? The Exodus? We could say GT began at any number of time/space moments should we choose.

Hello Diaste,

You are still missing my point.  Connecting more with the questions of your last paragraph, there have been many, many times of which it could rightly be said, "And there was great tribulation (Gk. megas thlipsis)."  Same as with the time Stephen spoke of in Jacob's day, when "there came a dearth over the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction (Gk. megas thlipsis)" (Acts 7:11).  But, concerning any time of past great tribulation, of none could it be said, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE" (Matt. 24:21).  What Jesus is speaking of will take place during the last days' DOTL judgment and Daniel's 70th Week, all of which connects with closure for this present world, meaning, God's wrapping of all of this thing up.  Very, very huge.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

If this is what you are asking, an answer that might be easier to get is that those who are already saved at the time of the gathering will be being delivered from the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment.  From this angle, it can be seen that the deliverance wrought by the gathering is less about the saved being delivered from "great tribulation" and more about the saved being delivered from the period in which the Lord's judgment will take place.

Those who are already saved prior to the beginning of the last days' DOTL judgment will be those who make up the present tense Church at that time.  This means those who are saved at that time, or those who are a part of the Church at that time, will be delivered just prior to the beginning of "the great day (or period) of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17).  It is not God's desire that any who are saved be upon the earth during the time of His last days' DOTL judgment.  But, all that will ultimately get saved do not do so before this begins.  There will be the 144,000 who will be saved the very day it begins, because of their seeing the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and their realization that Jesus was their Messiah indeed.  And, as we agree, there will be those who by faith will reject the beast, or Antichrist.  As far as Daniel's 70th Week, this is not synonymous with the DOTL judgment, but this seven year period will take place during that time.  I have sometimes thought that pre-Day of the Lord would be a better phrase to use for any "pre" position, as it is really more precise.

Again...so close. It's clear in scripture we do not avoid GT but we do avoid the wrath of God. The issue as I see it the definitions. Really, you are almost there.

There is a big difference between the period of the last days' DOTL judgment (i.e., "For the great day of His wrath is come"/Rev. 6:17) and the climax of it (i.e., "Thy wrath is come"/Rev. 11:18).  Try thinking in terms of the period of the DOTL compared to the DOTL proper.

As an example, for the Northern Kingdom, the period of the 8th century B.C. DOTL judgment began when Assyria invaded the land (II Kg. 15:19).  The DOTL proper, or climax, took place when Assyria besieged and took its capital, Samaria (II Kg. 17:5-6ff).

Similar with the Southern Kingdom.  The period of the 6th century B.C. DOTL judgment for it began when Babylon invaded the land (II Kg. 24:1).  The DOTL proper, or climax, took place when Babylon besieged and took its capital, Jerusalem (II Kg. 24:10-25:10ff).

It's like when the United States declared war against Japan on December 8, 1941.  It could be said that the great day (or period) of the wrath of the United States had come.  Japan had awakened the "sleeping giant."  But, on August 6-9, 1945, the wrath of the United States came proper.  In other words, it was then that the two atomic fists of the sleeping giant came down on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last statement, I certainly disagree with the choice you made for your first word.   And that last word?  Hmmm.  I'm thinking that it would be a bit more brotherly to avoid choosing a word like this to describe a position, the bottom line of which is so thoroughly supported by Scripture.  I hope you did not choose it with overmuch delight.

It is what it is. I didn't say the bottom line was incorrect, it's the timing that's jumbled and incoherent. 

I have spent many decades looking into this and there is little accuracy concerning timing in any of the several pretrib ideas or the other rapture doctrines save one:

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

 

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

Concerning the second sentence of your first paragraph, are you saying that the "bottom line" I am talking about is correct?  Are you realizing that the "bottom line" I am talking about is that the rapture will happen pre-trib?  What I was getting at is that, while I may disagree with some of the arguments scholars use to support the common pre-trib view, the "bottom line" is "thoroughly supported by Scripture."  I know you must have misunderstood what I was meaning.

Now again, I prefer to describe my position as pre-Daniel's 70th Week, as we are living in a day where that about every mention of "tribulation" has people thinking of Daniel's 70th Week.  This is part of the reason I started my thread on this subject titled, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

Concerning what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29, rather than straying too far from the focus of this thread, I would like to encourage you to consider, or consider afresh, my thread, The Tribulation of Matthew 24:29 and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/279060-the-tribulation-of-matthew-2429-and-daniels-70th-week/).   

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c

 and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The only possible timing and order that's valid no matter what anyone says. This is what Jesus told us will happen and when, and it all begins with the A of D.

Without the A of D there is no GT.

Hence, every doctrine is wrong unless it aligns with Matt 24:15-31. 

Poppycock is fitting. 

Something that I did not notice until after years of study, and something no scholar, author, or anyone in the web world that I am aware of has yet picked up on, is that at verse 29, Jesus turns His attention to the event of His Sign Appearance (vs. 30), and it is related to this that He speaks for the remainder of the chapter.  Since my realizing of this, I have not been able to un-realize it.  Of course, also important to note is that the prophetic puzzle pieces for verses 29-31 interlock with the prophetic puzzle pieces of John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).

Concerning your third from last statement, I could agree with it, if it read thus:  Without the A of D there is no Daniel's 70th Week.  Are we saying the same thing?  Perhaps.  But, the phrase "Daniel's 70th Week" makes for a more solid understanding.

Concerning your next to last statement, I would encourage you to read the opening post (and all of my posts) in my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).  Aren't links nice!  I know you have probably looked at it before (we've probably even discussed it there before), but I still hope you will look at it afresh.     

Concerning your last statement, I wonder, does "Poppycock" go down good with crowfeathers?

Man, I'm thinking to myself that when ole Diaste finally sees what I've been trying to show him, it is going to be a revolutionary time in his life!