Does anybody attend a Messianic Jew synogogue?

[Workman]

8 minutes ago, Workman said:

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Workman
Duplicate post.

[JohnD]

11 hours ago, Slibhin said:

If his family disowned him I find that completely disgusting and immoral on every level.

As I said previously, I never said you believed in this practice, and I am gratified by this confirmation.

It is wrong.

[David1701]

13 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Well he calls himself a rabbi and he's a Trumper so that's two huge knocks against him already.

He's not a "Trumper".  He says that there are parallels between Trump and Jehu, which is far from the same thing.

Just as many Christian pastors are called "Pastor _____".  I don't like it either, but at least it tells you what his office is.

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What am I supposed to do with this channel?

You could look at some of the videos, to see what you think.

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If his family disowned him I find that completely disgusting and immoral on every level.

Yes, I agree with you; but, it often happens, when someone changes religious outlook, if the family has strong religious attachments.  In some religions (e.g. Islam and Hinduism), some zealous families will even try to kill you, if you convert.

[David1701]

8 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

He sounds like a typical right wing pastor and whatever Jewish roots he claims have clearly been long abandoned.

A "typical right wing (sic) pastor"?  He's nothing like most pastors, Right-wing or otherwise!

He certainly has not abandoned his Jewish roots.  He teaches the people in his congregation who are from Gentile backgrounds (some are, some aren't) about Jewish matters that they would probably otherwise not know about.  I've seen some of his videos and I can vouch for this.

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He absolutely is a Trumper and therefore I assume he is morally questionable.

He affirms that Trump has done and said many sinful things and that he is not a holy man; nevertheless, he says that God has used Trump (God uses everyone and everything, for his own good purposes), in a similar way to how he used Jehu, metaphorically speaking.

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To equate Trump, a guy who ran away from the draft with a warrior king is absurd and the kind of fawning I expect from a typical maga person. He is also clearly a hyper zionist, a position I dislike in anyone Jew or otherwise. I also do not like Netanyahu who this pastor clearly adores. It is also very unbecoming to speak for Hashem which he does in the several videos I watched.

 

 

You are being very condemnatory here.

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Family violence is common in the middle east but I have seen it in every group of people. I am a firm believer that people are in charge of their own destiny and if a family member wishes to convert that is their prerogative.

People are absolutely NOT in charge of their own destiny!  There are so many proofs of this, throughout the Bible, that it should hardly need to be pointed out.  Here are a couple anyway.

Genesis 50:19,20 (KJV)

19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
  20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

God intended Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery, as the Bible states, in order to save many people, during the famine, many years later.  Joseph had no control over this whatever.

Isaiah 46:9-11 (KJV)

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
  10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
  11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[David1701]

3 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

When I say abandoned his Jewish roots I mean he no longer follows the Talmud, Jewish law in general or still believe in Jewish theology.

The Talmud is not something that anyone should be expected to follow, Jewish or otherwise.

In the New Covenant, we are not under the law, but under grace.  The law of Moses has been fulfilled.  It is those who are led by the Spirit of God who are the sons of God, not those who try to be righteous, by attempting to keep the law.

The law was a schoolmaster, to lead us to the Messiah; and, the Ten Commandments (the foundation of the law) are still very useful for showing people what sin is, to make them realise their guilt and helplessness, so that they might cry out to the LORD for mercy and acknowledge their need for a Saviour.

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Fair enough I suppose. Still however, he does seem to support Trump and Netanyahu and that makes me disinclined to care what he has to say.

He doesn't support them, in the sense of trusting in them as politicians; but, he does honour those policies that support godliness.

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In what way?

Are you serious?

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I should hardly need to point out that I do not care what the bible says because I am not a Christian. The Tanakh and the Christian Old Testament are not identical.

The Tanakh is part of the Bible.  I can quote from a Jewish translation, instead of a Christian translation, and, in most cases, it will make no difference.

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So, in the Tanakh at no point does it say Hashem compelled Joseph's brothers to do him evil.

I said nothing about compulsion.

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Jews do not believe in predestination, however we do believe Hashem will take an evil situation and turn it into good. The Tanakh is full of such stories. Our freedom to choose to sin or not sin is a core belief for Jews and nowhere does G-d suggest otherwise.

You are conflating the freedom to choose what we want, which we all agree upon, with the freedom to want what is contrary to our nature (we can't).  Your nature determines what you want to do and you are free to choose that.  An evil man will choose evil, and a righteous man will generally choose what is righteous; but both choose freely (not coerced).

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Besides all that if you don't believe in free will, which I have seen some people promoting here, then what is even the point of reaching out or ministering in the first place? If everything has been decided then all our actions are irrelevant and we all may as well sit around waiting for our fates.

The LORD uses means to his ends.  It is not that what will be, will be, no matter what; rather, it is that the LORD will bring about his purposes, using the means he has chosen, including our uncoerced choices.

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

I do not expect anyone here to believe in the Talmud and I'm not offended when other people don't... but I do believe in it and I expect that to be respected, otherwise we have no point in discussing anything.

Why would you put your trust in commentaries by fallible men?  The Tanakh is inspired by God, but the commentaries on it are not.

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If that is what Jonathan Cahn teaches then I was correct in my initial assessment that he has totally abandoned his Jewish roots and he has nothing I need listen to. If he has converted to Christianity and no longer believes in the Talmud that's his prerogative. To say Jewish people aren't expected to follow it is a rejection of everything that is Judaism. That would be like me saying Christians don't need to listen to anything Jesus said.

It was my comment, not Cahn's.

The Talmud is not equal in value to the Tanakh (far from it).  The equivalent for a Christian with a Gentile background (such as myself) would be trusting in Christian commentaries on the Bible, as if they were also inspired.  We are not to do this...

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Hashem has stated repeatedly throughout the Tanakh that his covenant is eternal and binding. The Torah is forever, his words not mine. You will never ever convince me Hashem would go back on his promise.

Merriam Webster:

binding

adjective

1: that binds

2: imposing an obligation

eternal

adjective

1 a: having infinite duration : EVERLASTING

That's not what I see but it's not an issue worth distracting ourselves over.

 

God has made a New Covenant (as it says in the Tanakh) with Israel; and, he has graciously brought many Gentiles into that covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
  33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
  34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

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You just said people are not in charge of their own destiny. Either they are or they aren't. You can't have it both ways. Otherwise yes we are in complete agreement. People choose their actions and Hashem can use them to his own ends.

People are indeed not in charge of their own destiny - God is.  He hardens one hell-deserving sinner and softens another, without coercion.

Edited November 22, 2022 by David1701

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

Congratulations, you agree with the Karaites. I do not expect you to believe in the Talmud, but unless you have read it you are in no position to speak on it's authority for Jews.

If you want the Talmud to be authoritative for you (subjective authority), then that's your choice, no man can stop you; however, it does not carry the objective authority of the inspired word of God.

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Once again, I do not care what the bible says as I am a Jew. I know you do believe in it but I don't, and I am the one you're trying to convince. Regardless your own book even confirms what I stated.

Our own book contains this passage, because it's straight from the Tanakh, which Christians believe is the older part of the inspired word of God.

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Jeremiah - Chapter 30 -33 (from the Tanakh)

30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.

31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.

32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.

 

What is the law? The Torah. It plainly says Israel will once again be G-d's people just he promised.

 

Amen; however, those people will have God's Torah inscribed upon their hearts, which is different from (and better than) the giving of the law to Moses upon tablets of stone.

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33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Yes indeed.

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As I have stated, you will NEVER convince me Hashem has gone back on his word. Ever.

Why would I try to convince you of something that I don't believe???  Of course the LORD has not gone back on his word!

You must be making an assumption that what I am saying implies this, but I'm not.

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That is completely contrary to his nature and is directly contradicted by his own words throughout the Tanakh. I don't care what verses you cherry pick to try and bolster an argument to the otherwise.

As I said above, I agree with you that the LORD will never go back on his word.  The New Covenant is a part of God's eternal covenant - a vitally important part, since no-one has ever gained acceptance with him by trying to keep the law.

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We do not believe in hell, nor do we really have a concept of judgement after death because none of that appears in the Tanakh. Different Jews have differing opinions on the subject of the afterlife but there is no definitive answer, because Hashem has chosen to remain silent on the subject.

Alright, then, don't use the word "hell", use "sheol" (the place of the dead), which is scattered throughout the Tanakh.  I know that, in certain contexts, it can mean "grave", but it often doesn't.

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Either people have free will or they don't, stop trying to have it both ways.

The great thing about freedom, is that it can mean so many different things.  As an example, a freewill offering is one in which the offerer is under no legal or moral obligation to give it.  That is one kind of freedom.  Another example would be the choices that people make every day, without any coercion.  These kinds of freedom are not a problem at all.

Now, what about a kind of freedom that some claim we have: the alleged ability to will contrary to our nature and desires?  Well, the Tanakh says that man was created in the image of God; it also says that God cannot lie (because he is the Truth).  Since God cannot will contrary to his nature (and hallelujah for that!), neither can we.

We can lie, since Adam fell and we inherit his fallen nature.

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If your deity is purposely hardening people to go to a hell he created then you worship an unjust torturer. If I have no hope of redemption in your belief system because your deity has decided to create me JUST to torture me, what is the point? What is the point of having a ministry at all? If your deity wants you then you'll go to heaven anyway, and if he doesn't want me then nothing you or I do will matter.

Firstly, God (there is only one God) only hardens hard people.  He gives them more of what they already have (hardness of heart).

Secondly, it is God's prerogative to have mercy upon whom he will and to leave the rest to the sin they desire.

Thirdly, what we do matters very much; not because it changes the future, but because we are accountable for what we do, since we do it willingly.

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Jews do not believe in this, we all have a free choice to sin or not to sin. Just as you'll never convince me Hashem has gone back on his word, you will never convince me he is cruel or unjust. Ever.

I do not want to convince you that God is cruel or unjust, since I don't believe that myself!

Having a choice is not the same thing as having the desire to carry out the right choice.  Options are one thing, but it is your strongest desire, at any given moment, that determines which available option you choose.

Edited November 23, 2022 by David1701

[JohnD]

7 hours ago, Slibhin said:

When I say abandoned his Jewish roots I mean he no longer follows the Talmud, Jewish law in general or still believe in Jewish theology.

Talmud taking precedent over Tanakh?

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

Jeremiah - Chapter 30 -33 (from the Tanakh)

30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.

31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.

32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.

 

What is the law? The Torah. It plainly says Israel will once again be G-d's people just he promised.

 

33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nope.

NOT Torah!!! Verse 31 clearly states NOT COVENANT AT SINAI (Torah)!!!

But places a New Law / Better Law of G-d in our hearts.

And will forgive our sin and no longer remember our iniquity. Also NOT Torah.

Torah holds the feet to the fire.

New Covenant is shalom with HaShem, forgiveness of sin:

Isaiah 54: (from Tanakh)

7"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.		זבְּרֶ֥גַע קָטֹ֖ן עֲזַבְתִּ֑יךְ וּבְרַֽחֲמִ֥ים גְּדֹלִ֖ים אֲקַבְּצֵֽךְ:
8With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord.		חבְּשֶׁ֣צֶף קֶ֗צֶף הִסְתַּ֨רְתִּי פָנַ֥י רֶ֙גַע֙ מִמֵּ֔ךְ וּבְחֶ֥סֶד עוֹלָ֖ם רִֽחַמְתִּ֑יךְ אָמַ֥ר גֹּֽאֲלֵ֖ךְ יְהֹוָֽה:
9"For this is to Me [as] the waters of Noah, as I swore that the waters of Noah shall never again pass over the earth, so have I sworn neither to be wroth with you nor to rebuke you.		טכִּי־מֵ֥י נֹ֙חַ֙ זֹ֣את לִ֔י אֲשֶׁ֣ר נִשְׁבַּ֗עְתִּי מֵֽעֲבֹ֥ר מֵי־נֹ֛חַ ע֖וֹד עַל־הָאָ֑רֶץ כֵּ֥ן נִשְׁבַּ֛עְתִּי מִקְּצֹ֥ף עָלַ֖יִךְ וּמִגְּעָר־בָּֽךְ:
10For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.		יכִּ֚י הֶֽהָרִים֙ יָמ֔וּשׁוּ וְהַגְּבָע֖וֹת תְּמוּטֶ֑ינָה וְחַסְדִּ֞י מֵאִתֵּ֣ךְ לֹֽא־יָמ֗וּשׁ וּבְרִ֚ית שְׁלוֹמִי֙ לֹ֣א תָמ֔וּט אָמַ֥ר מְרַֽחֲמֵ֖ךְ יְהֹוָֽה:

[David1701]

5 hours ago, Slibhin said:

The Talmud is not new laws and additions to the Torah, it is a series of commentaries on Jewish law. The Torah has many laws (613 Mitzvot) and some require clarity and explanations... for example the Torah says don't do this, well does that include this, this and this also? What exactly does Hashem mean by "this" anyway? In other words the Torah tells us what to do and not do, the Talmud tells us how. One cannot function without the other.

The Talmud is people's opinions as to what the Torah means.  This does not mean that those opinions are always correct; whereas, the Torah is always correct.

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They are similar but not identical. Let's compare:

Jeremiah - Chapter 31 -33 (from the Tanakh)

30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.

31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.

32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.

33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

With yours:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
  32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
  33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
  34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

First and foremost they are arranged differently and we (Jews) consider it a sin to change a single letter of the Tanakh.

 

These are translations into English.  No translation is, or can be, absolutely perfect (e.g. Hebrew words often do not have an exact English equivalent, then there is the question of what to do with idioms and grammatical differences between languages, etc.).

I agree with you that to change even a letter of the Tanakh would be a sin; but, that is speaking of copying the Hebrew, not translating into a different language.  In translation, we must try to convey the original as accurately as possible, but that is the best that can be done.

The meaning of that Jewish translation of Jer. 31:31-34 is just the same as the KJV that I quoted (and probably the same as most other translations).

 

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Also the books are not presented in the correct order:

The Tanakh:

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

The Old Testament:

https://thekingsbible.com/

 

There are some Bibles that put the Tanakh books in the original order; but, that is really not the most important matter, since it's the content that matters far more than the order in which it is presented.

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They are also translated differently, the Old Testament introducing concepts like Lucifer who do not appear in the Tanakh. To us this is a really really big deal.

The KJV uses "Lucifer" but most modern translations do not.

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You seem to be arguing Hashem has changed his covenant and has not at the same time. Hashem said the Torah was binding and eternal, at no point did he ever say "Next edition coming" or "To be amended".

There have been several covenants (all mentioned in the Tanakh).  The Tanakh also mentions that there was a New Covenant, yet to come (at that time).  We simply believe that that covenant has come.  This is not an emendation, but faith in what God has told us, in the Tanakh.

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To argue keeping the law is irrelevant not only contradicts his covenant, but also contradicts his own words that keeping his law would result in his blessings and not to keep them would result in punishment up to and including death.

I don't say that keeping the law is irrelevant, since the righteousness that the law requires is fulfilled in those who trust in the Messiah and are led by the Spirit of God.

Trying to be righteous, by attempting to keep the 613 commandments of the Torah, should lead you to realise that you can't do it, which, in turn, should lead you to realise that you are guilty before God and in need of a Saviour.

The animal sacrifices (and the shed blood) were necessary, to cover the sins of God's people; however, they had to keep being repeated, because they could never take those sins away.  Those sacrifices have long since ceased, because they have been fulfilled by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God (who is Yeshua HaMashiach), on the cross.  Being hanged on a cross is a curse, and the Lord Yeshua became a curse for us, taking all of our sin, and the punishments due for that sin, on the cross.

He is also the perfect Mediator between God and man, since he is both (Emmanuel - God with us).

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You stated G-d purposely hardened people which presumably would result in them "going to hell". This is a negation of free will and totally incompatible with Jewish theology.

Exodus 4:19-21 (Jewish Translation of the Tanach)

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/shemot-exodus-chapter-4

19 And HaShem said unto Moses in Midian: 'Go, return into Egypt; for all the men are dead that sought thy life.'

20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt; and Moses took the rod of G-d in his hand.

21 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'When thou goest back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand; but I will harden his heart, and he will not let the people go.

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Sheol is not hell and never has been. Both the righteous and unrighteous go there. The Tanakh says nothing about life after death except for a few vague hints.

Yes the righteous and unrighteous went to Sheol, but in different compartments (God separates light from darkness).

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Jews do not believe in original sin and no such concept is in the Tanakh. We are all born a blank slate capable to choose sin or choose not to.

Perhaps you could tell us all what "yetzer hara" means?

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You are once again trying to have both free will and not have it at the same time. These points are restating what you already said above so I won't address them again, but I am getting whiplash going back and forth between "we have free will" and "we don't have free will". Please pick a lane.

I'm explaining that there are different types of freedom, and that our will has some, but not all, of these.

The human will is free from external coercion.

There are some matters in which the human will is free from legal or moral obligation.

The human will is free to do what the person desires the most (within restrictions of ability and opportunity), although there may be legal and/or moral obligations involved.

The human will is not free from the person's nature; it always seeks to bring into being the strongest desire, at any given moment.  This means that the will, by its very nature, is a slave to the person's nature/strongest desire.

Edited November 23, 2022 by David1701
typo, formatting