The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[kenny2212]

16 hours ago, missmuffet said:

It wasn't savage it was honest. 

Okay. Honest is great!

[kenny2212]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi Kenny. Thanks for pointing that out. See my answer above to Dennis.

But you have made a fatal mistake (one that many make). To be in the Kingdom you need:
° Rebirth
° Baptism
° Faith in Messiah
° An intimate relationship with the Father and Son
° Obedience to God
° Works that show your willingness to serve God and men

Both Moses and Elijah were in the kingdom in Matthew 17.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV) - 

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV) - 

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Moses was born a Levite - of the line of Jacob of the line of Abraham. He is tasked by God to lead Israel to, and into, the Land Promised to Abraham and his seed. He is trained for 40 years in the house of Pharaoh "in all the knowledge and wisdom of Egypt" (Act.7:22). He is a sinner like everyone else so he must be "SAVED" from the angel of death by BELIEVING in the Lamb. He is SAVED but not in the Good Land. He stands by the Red Sea and cries out that Israel should "see the salvation of the Lord". They survive the sea AND the Egyptians. They are SAVED again but are not yet in the Good Land where Israel should fight kings and turn Canaan into a Land where God is King. Finally, because this SAVED man Moses dealt incorrectly with God's Testimony, he was allowed to SEE the Coming Kingdom of Israel but not ENTER it.

This ban did not touch his birth to Abraham, Jacob and Levi. This ban did not remove him to hell. This ban did not affect his standing as God's chosen leader. This ban did not stop God speaking to Moses face to face.

A Christian is SAVED from the effects of Adam's fall and enjoys a rebirth. He is SAVED from His sin (singular) and can expect resurrection - that is, SAVED from death. He is relieved of the burden of his trespasses and is thus SAVED from the Lake of Fire. But 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5, all written to Christians, warns them of their works. Evil, slothful and fleshly works can get them banned fro the KINGDOM. Their salvations are not threatened. Their GOAL - the Kingdom of Christ - is at stake.

I appreciate your answer and know what you mean. But we were discussing Old Testament saints and the coming KINGDOM of our Lord. Moses and David both wrote concerning Messiah. Moses was in the Kingdom in Matthew 17 and David will be a king when he is resurrected (Jer.30:9).

[AdHoc]

@kenny2212

Changed the title to The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

They are already under the altar when the Seals are opened. The Seals are the beginning of God's wrath (vs:16-17).

What is remarkable is that they were so in tune with God that they knew the hour when the age of grace was over. They could call for vengeance and retribution. They were told that some colleagues would join them before they were resurrected.

I judge that the white garments are very important. Though they were martyrs, they were still sinners. If God started vengeance they would be equally threatened if Christ's righteousness was not imputed to them.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/26/2022 at 4:00 AM, kenny2212 said:

Rev. 6: 9-11 (NKJV) -

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Well I believe they are killed before the tribulation (not only because of Rev. 6:12-17 which I believe is the rapture), but also because of 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 (NKJV) - 

This is not possible, as per them being killed before the Tribulation if you mean the 70th week. The Seals are not actionable events anyway, they are Jesus prophesying in the midst of the Pre Trib Raptured Church as seen in Revelation chapters 4 & 5, what God's Wrath is about to bring forth and what the Anti-Christ reign will bring forth, he is only allowed to go forth conquering as the Beast until 1260 days of the 70th week passes or in the exact milddle of the week, and that just so happens to be when the Wrath of God falls via the Rev. 8 asteroid impact. 

So, those under the Altar are John being shown a future event whilst already in the future, Jesus opens the seal about 45-75 days before the Wrath of God falls, so those John sees in his "vision" are Future Tribulation deaths which only come after the Rev. 8 Wrath of God falls. So  John is taken to a future point in time, in Heaven, amidst the Pre Trib Raptured Church, he then is shown Jesus opening the Seals and what the Wrath of God will bring when he finally opens 7th Seal, which will bring God's Wrath. So John was in the Future being shown future events in a vision. Wild but true. So, those seen under the Altar will be killed during the Time of Jacobs Troubles (the last 1260 days under Satan's reign as leader on this earth, after he is cast down to earth), thus when Jesus is opening the Seals they have not yet died. He is showing John their future hearts crying out to him, God knows all of these things !!

Then Jesus tells them (this happens after Rev. 8 starts) they must wait for a little season (for the Anti-Christs 42 month rule to finish) before they can get vengeance on "THOSE ON EARTH" who killed them. In Rev. 17:12 we see the 10 kings rule for one hour with the Beast. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast all get raised and Judged only after the Second Coming. No one goes to heaven before the Rapture save Elijah/Moses and maybe Elisha, a few at best. Daniel is told he will be raised at the very end, we are told we will be Raptured at the Last Trump, at the same time those who are alive on earth are TRANSFORMED from men with living bodies into Spirit Men, by simply shedding our bodies (we die when our spirit man is called up).

Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Revelation Man

[missmuffet]

The souls under the altar are the Tribulation Saints who were killed during the 7 year tribulation for their faith in Christ. 

[Sister]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:00 PM, kenny2212 said:

Rev. 6: 9-11 (NKJV) -

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Hi Kenny

The 4th Seal (Pale horse) indicates when full power is given to the 10 kings and false prophet. 

The 5th Seal is when things have gone from bad to worse, and the new law is that no man can buy or sell unless he receives the Mark of the Beast. 

The dead can't speak, but revelation 6:9-11 is just a metaphor showing us that 'many'.... 'brethren' will be killed by this beast also through persecution just like our brethren in the past.

My point is, that many Christians will be killed under the hand of the Son of Perdition ruling with this beast when that time comes, and that is what God is showing us.  He's not showing us an early rapture, but exactly how it's going to be.  This is truth.

When this is all accomplished- the final number of saints who will be killed, God will avenge for us.  The two witnesses will be the last ones killed - now it's revenge time.

Further;

The 6th Seal contains all the 6 trumpets/vials.

By the time we reach only the 1st trumpet/1st vial in the 6th Seal, the Mark of the Beast is already issued so this proves the Son of Perdition comes in the 5th Seal.

Here is the proof in the pudding;

Revelation 16:2   And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Mark issued already.

 

The 7th Seal is the Coming and the war against the Lamb.  It is done.

 

 

 

[kenny2212]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is not possible, as per them being killed before the Tribulation if you mean the 70th week. The Seals are not actionable events anyway, they are Jesus prophesying in the midst of the Pre Trib Raptured Church as seen in Revelation chapters 4 & 5, what God's Wrath is about to bring forth and what the Anti-Christ reign will bring forth, he is only allowed to go forth conquering as the Beast until 1260 days of the 70th week passes or in the exact milddle of the week, and that just so happens to be when the Wrath of God falls via the Rev. 8 asteroid impact. 

So, those under the Altar are John being shown a future event whilst already in the future, Jesus opens the seal about 45-75 days before the Wrath of God falls, so those John sees in his "vision" are Future Tribulation deaths which only come after the Rev. 8 Wrath of God falls. So  John is taken to a future point in time, in Heaven, amidst the Pre Trib Raptured Church, he then is shown Jesus opening the Seals and what the Wrath of God will bring when he finally opens 7th Seal, which will bring God's Wrath. So John was in the Future being shown future events in a vision. Wild but true. So, those seen under the Altar will be killed during the Time of Jacobs Troubles (the last 1260 days under Satan's reign as leader on this earth, after he is cast down to earth), thus when Jesus is opening the Seals they have not yet died. He is showing John their future hearts crying out to him, God knows all of these things !!

Then Jesus tells them (this happens after Rev. 8 starts) they must wait for a little season (for the Anti-Christs 42 month rule to finish) before they can get vengeance on "THOSE ON EARTH" who killed them. In Rev. 17:12 we see the 10 kings rule for one hour with the Beast. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast all get raised and Judged only after the Second Coming. No one goes to heaven before the Rapture save Elijah/Moses and maybe Elisha, a few at best. Daniel is told he will be raised at the very end, we are told we will be Raptured at the Last Trump, at the same time those who are alive on earth are TRANSFORMED from men with living bodies into Spirit Men, by simply shedding our bodies (we die when our spirit man is called up).

Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture. 

Rev. 4:1 (NKJV) - 

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show YOU things which must take place after this.” (emphasis mine)

You is a singular pronoun; used to refer to ONE (a single) entity. Only John was having (and about to have) the vision; who else could the voice in Rev. 4:1 be speaking to?

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by kenny2212

[kenny2212]

19 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The souls under the altar are the Tribulation Saints who were killed during the 7 year tribulation for their faith in Christ. 

Believers who die during the tribulation period soul sleep.

Rev.20:4-6 (NKJV) -

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not LIVE AGAIN until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (emphasis mine)

Please take note of the phrase "live again".

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, kenny2212 said:

Rev. 4:1 (NKJV) - 

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show YOU things which must take place after this.” (emphasis mine)

You is a singular pronoun; used to refer to ONE (a single) entity. Only John was having (and about to have) the vision; who else could the voice in Rev. 4:1 be speaking to?

Yes, Jesus did not show million, 100s, 100s or even a few these future events, he only showed them to one man, John. He showed John a door up in Heaven and then blew the Last Trump which always ended the Summer Harvest (think Church Age). This comes after Rev. chapters 2 and 3 where we see the 7 Churches (7 = Divine Completion) and thus as Jesus tells John in Rev. 4:1 I will show you the HEREAFTER, or everything that happens after the Church Age. Then in Rev. 4:4 we see things ONLY the OVERCOMERS were promised in Rev. 2 and 3. We see Crowns of gold, and in Rev. 2:10 the overcomers were promised crowns. We also see White Raiment (Robes) and in Rev. 3:5 the overcomers were promised White Raiment. We see the 24 Elders sitting at God's Throne, and in Rev. 3/21 the overcomers were promised to sit at God's throne. The 24 Elders comes from 1 Chronicles 24 where there was 24 Orders of the Priesthood. In Rev. 1:6 and 5:10 we are called kings and priests, its all symbology. In Rev. 5:9 we are said to be REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus, angels do not need redeeming. Rev. 4:4 is the Pre Trib Raptured Church. John is shown how he will be taken to Heaven and when, he is later shown the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Rev. 7:9-17.

So, yes of course, only John was taken up and shown the visions and told things by Angels of what was going to happen in the HEREAFTER (70th week). That is a true statement. But it was John being shown how he would be Raptured AFTER the Church Age.

You are correct, we rest until the Rapture. But those souls under the Altar are 70th week Saints, so Missmuffet is correct on that. Once the Pre Trib Rapture happens no one else is going to heaven, those who die as Martyrs live and reign on this earth with Jesus for 1000 years.