Over-comers and the Second Death

[LuftWaffle]

13 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 ... if that isn't enough to convince you that God provides conscious torment for those who oppose Him then nothing will... it is enough for me. 
 

Ah, you think I wouldn't notice you leaving 'eternal' out of the above statement?
So you're pretending now that any conscious torment at any point in time is sufficient to make your case, eh? Sneaky!

But you are of course, 100% correct in that I don't find your arguments convincing, because they not just weak, they're also dishonest.
The only reason you quoted the parable of Lazarus is because given a shallow, face-value glance it looks like it supports your doctrine of eternal conscious torment. It's got fire, it's got suffering, so to the intellectually lazy and sloppy reader who is fine with outsourcing their bible study to John MacArthur or GotQuestions.org while calling others 'humanists', that is, as you say, 'good enough'.
The fact that it takes place prior to judgement day and thus has no relevance to the question of what happens to the unsaved after judgement, is an inconvenient truth which you must ignore, and instead of being honest and admitting that, you shamelessly hurl false accusations at those who have a different viewpoint. 

But, as you may have noticed, I don't let people get away with that sort of thing. 

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Ah, you think I wouldn't notice you leaving 'eternal' out of the above statement?
So you're pretending now that any conscious torment at any point in time is sufficient to make your case, eh? Sneaky!

But you are of course, 100% correct in that I don't find your arguments convincing, because they not just weak, they're also dishonest.
The only reason you quoted the parable of Lazarus is because given a shallow, face-value glance it looks like it supports your doctrine of eternal conscious torment. It's got fire, it's got suffering, so to the intellectually lazy and sloppy reader who is fine with outsourcing their bible study to John MacArthur or GotQuestions.org while calling others 'humanists', that is, as you say, 'good enough'.
The fact that it takes place prior to judgement day and thus has no relevance to the question of what happens to the unsaved after judgement, is an inconvenient truth which you must ignore, and instead of being honest and admitting that, you shamelessly hurl false accusations at those who have a different viewpoint. 

But, as you may have noticed, I don't let people get away with that sort of thing. 

perhaps you can show me somewhere death is non=existence?

[LuftWaffle]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:13 PM, enoob57 said:

perhaps you can show me somewhere death is non=existence?

Show me where I claimed that death = non-existence.

[WilliamL]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:43 PM, AdHoc said:

There is not a single scripture where leaven is positive.

Certainly not for those such as you who interpret all leaven passages with the foregone presumption that leaven represents sin. I avoid such presumptions.

The fact is that you have been leavened with the false doctrine of the Jews, and the Christians that have followed in the same doctrine. Because the FACT is, there is not a single scripture that definitively states that leaven always is equated with sin.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by WilliamL

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This scripture clearly shows that Paul understood that leaven = doctrine, and that doctrine can be either good and evil.

Methinks you have a problem with good ole English. This verse not only says to avoid leaven in our daily walk, but it creates  opposite. "UN-leavened" is "sincerity and truth". Therefore, "leaven" is "INsincerity and Falsehood". Added to this, the context is incest = leaven.

[WilliamL]

On 12/11/2022 at 3:42 PM, AdHoc said:

Methinks you have a problem with good ole English. This verse not only says to avoid leaven in our daily walk, but it creates  opposite. "UN-leavened" is "sincerity and truth". Therefore, "leaven" is "INsincerity and Falsehood".

Yup, screwed that one up, happens from time to time when I am in a hurry. So here is a do-over:

On 12/6/2022 at 3:43 PM, AdHoc said:

There is not a single scripture where leaven is positive.

Lev. 23:17‘You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the LORD. ... 23‘The priest shall wave them with the [leavened] bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

Firstfruits to the Lord are always holy. Holiness, I hope you will admit, "is positive." One cannot deny this without totally twisting the Scripture.

The use of leaven in Matt. 13:33 is also positive:

Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

Without any doubt, the kingdom of heaven is positive, which Jesus prophesies will spread its leaven = doctrine of Christ throughout the whole world. Twist these words if you will.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yup, screwed that one up, happens from time to time when I am in a hurry. So here is a do-over:

Lev. 23:17‘You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the LORD. ... 23‘The priest shall wave them with the [leavened] bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

Firstfruits to the Lord are always holy. Holiness, I hope you will admit, "is positive." One cannot deny this without totally twisting the Scripture.

The use of leaven in Matt. 13:33 is also positive:

Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

Without any doubt, the kingdom of heaven is positive, which Jesus prophesies will spread its leaven = doctrine of Christ throughout the whole world. Twist these words if you will.

I like this. It seems leaven is used to signify a change in state at a fundamental level, not a commentary of good versus evil. Good leaven changes the entire lump into that which is good, bad leaven does the same. 

[AdHoc]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:50 PM, WilliamL said:

Yup, screwed that one up, happens from time to time when I am in a hurry. So here is a do-over:

Lev. 23:17‘You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the LORD. ... 23‘The priest shall wave them with the [leavened] bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

Firstfruits to the Lord are always holy. Holiness, I hope you will admit, "is positive." One cannot deny this without totally twisting the Scripture.

The use of leaven in Matt. 13:33 is also positive:

Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

Without any doubt, the kingdom of heaven is positive, which Jesus prophesies will spread its leaven = doctrine of Christ throughout the whole world. Twist these words if you will.

But that is not an argument. The Church is HOLY but had leaven in it in 1st Corinthians 5.

My original argument is that in the feasts of Leviticus 23, the Passover - without leaven - speaks for Christ. Pentecost - with leaven, speaks for us who have the Adamic nature.

Matthew 13 shows the development of the Kingdom in this  age and in MYSTERY. The first four parables, spoken to the unbelieving crowd, show what Satan will do during this age to stunt the Kingdom. And we, with hindsight, can see these parables playing out before our eyes.
- We have the vast majority of Christians lukewarm - The Sower
- We have a counterfeit Roman Church - The Tares
- We have Roman/Babylonian mythology, like Christmas - The Leaven
- We have Rome ruling Christendom like Nebuchadnezzar - The Mustard bush

Leaven has not a single positive connotation in scripture.

[WilliamL]

On 12/19/2022 at 4:10 PM, AdHoc said:

My original argument is that in the feasts of Leviticus 23, the Passover - without leaven - speaks for Christ. Pentecost - with leaven, speaks for us who have the Adamic nature.

The prototype Passover took place in Egypt. The removal of the leaven signified that God's people were to reject the doctrines of Egypt = the world. On the later Passover, at the death of Jesus, He took upon Himself the sins of the world (including all false doctrines), thereby removing them from all who believe in him.

After God's people came out of Egypt/the world, they were given new doctrine/leaven from God's own mouth from Mount Sinai. They accepted this doctrine/leaven by making a blood covenant with God the next day, Pentecost. New, pure doctrine/leaven is what is celebrated on Pentecost, both at Sinai and later by the disciples in the upper room, when the Holy Spirit fell. As in, HOLY. DOCTRINE.

[FreeGrace]

On 11/26/2022 at 5:30 AM, Mr. M said:

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

Just a couple of observations as I was listening to the Spirit on being an over-comer, and He mentioned

"the second death". I knew of this statement made at the close of one of the messages to the churches. 

If one aspect of being an over-comer is deliverance from the second death, this implies that those who fail

to overcome will be held accountable by the same ministration.

To be an over-comer also reflects in my mind upon these words of Christ:

"but he who endures to the end will be saved". Matthew 24:13

The second observation is the statement "shall not be hurt by the 2nd death."

This reflects in my mind upon this teaching by Paul:

1 Corinthians 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss;

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And then John:

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

All judgment is directly proportional to each individual's life works (i.e. a just recompense

of reward/punishment)  and the lake of fire is able to be applied to each individual proportionally.

Some escape unharmed, some suffer great loss, but are saved. And then there are acts of unrighteousness

that are unto death, and we are instructed to not even pray over those sins.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask,

and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death.

I do not say that he should pray about that.

The remaining statements with regards to the second death are found in Revelation 20/21.

Revelation 20:

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The second death has no power over them, for they refused to worship the Beast.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for

the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received

his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. 

This is the second death.

After the final judgment, there is no longer death, or a place for Hades.

Revelation 21:

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

Over-comers in the last days refuse to worship the beast or receive his mark. They are blessed with victory

over the second death, and reign for 1000 years. This is the first of two end times resurrections.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,

and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

They are those who receive a full reward of inheritance.

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for,

but that we may receive a full reward.

This OP seems more of a topic for the "soteriology" folder than here.  However, after thinking for many years that the "second death" which refers to the LOF, was making the point that unbelievers are spiritual dead, and further (finally) study on the whole study of resurrection, it became clear to me that the "second death" is specific for what will happen to all unbelievers when they will be cast into the LOF (Rev 20:15).

Rev 20:5 speaks of "the rest of the dead".  These are ALL the unbelievers in the human race, and they will be resurrected after the MK, in order to appear before the GWT judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

The difference between the singular resurrection of the saved and the one for the unsaved is that the saved will receive a glorified immortal body, and the unsaved will only get their old mortal body back.

So, when the unbeliever is cast into the LOF, he/she will experience physical death ONCE AGAIN, meaning the second time.