Is the Beast in Daniel 7 the same Empires as Dan 2?

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The great image of Daniel 2 equates to the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns of Rev 13 that has the mouth of a lion, feet of a bear,  and the body of a leopard.   Daniel told Nebu that the image portrays what will happen in the latter days: 

Dan 2:28 KJV But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

The four kings that arise,  in Daniel 7 is the equivalent to when the image is "broken into pieces together".

Dan 2:34-35 KJV ³⁴ Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and BRAKE THEM TO PIECES. ³⁵ Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, BROKEN TO PIECES TOGETHER, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The beast of Rev 13 and the great image of Daniel 2 represents the "one world government" of the last days.   It occupies the combined territories of Babylon, Persia, Greece and the 4th kingdom on earth.   By being broken into pieces,  this allows for the 4 kingdoms to re-emerge on the world scene.  One,  the 4th kingdom on earth,  will subdue the other 3 kings.   But one by one,  (after a time and a season)  the 3 subdued kings will regain their dominion/authority from the beast, the beast that has no crowns.   The crowns represent God given authority to rule.   Jesus will come and break the image into its individual pieces.   The beast will attempt to resurrect the "image" over the course of the final 42 months.   These final times represent the Gentiles rule over the children of Israel.   Paul calls it the fulness of Gentiles coming in,  and thus ending the partial blindness upon Israel.   Jesus said that Jerusalem would trodden down (at this time) by the Gentiles and remain so until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled/complete...ple'roo-o.

So yes, the kingdoms of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are the same,  both historically and futuristically speaking.   

Edit to add: 

The 7 heads of the Rev 13 beast are: 

1 head of the lion, (1st beast) 

1 head of the bear, (2nd beast) 

4 heads of the leopard,  (3rd beast) 

1 head (of the 4th beast) that has 10 toes/horns.

Dan 7:4-7 KJV ⁴ The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. ⁵ And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. ⁶ After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. ⁷ After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Be Blessed

The PuP 

How do you reconcile that chapter 7, if taken as a whole (I know there weren't these chapter divisions originally, but it makes sense as one topic), pertains to end of the age matters?  And one has to make several little stretches to fit the statue in chapter 3 together with the beast in 7.  I know there are certain similarities, and some historical things that coincide, but it seems to take a bit of effort get everything to fit together, when many other thing says otherwise.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I don't fully understand what you are asking... Did I sound conflicting?   Daniel 7 AND Daniel 2 are both end times prophecies.   The 4 kings/ kingdoms that arise does not refer to their historical rise per se, but their rise refers to their rising again,  even Babylon,  Persia,  and Greece,  and the 4th kingdom that will have 10 horns.   It is the leader of this 4th kingdom,  aka the little horn,  that will bring in the unity that covers the geographic region occupied by his kingdom WITH Babylon, Persia and Greece.   They will rise again when that unity is broken by the coming of the kingdom of God,  ala the parousia of Christ. 

Rev 12:10 KJV And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 This is marked by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet,  when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God AND HIS CHRIST.   

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Does that help? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Thanks. I understand that the Dan 3 statue goes into the future too (e.g., legs & 10 toes).  My point is that the beast in Dan 7 is ALL future from Daniel and does not equate with any of the ancient kingdoms Daniel was close to.  I think Dan 7 has to be about end of the age times and empires. 

Does that provide any clarity?

[Marilyn C]

[Marilyn C]

[Vine Abider]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thanks!  I'd seen this before that I think you posted on another thread . . . hard to remember where exactly, as there's so much activity on here.  Where did you get this?  Not that many see this, and still think Dan 7 beasts are mostly in the past (at least that's my perception. 

The lion and bear are pretty much a given I think.  Regarding the leopard, I'd read conjecture that the wings on the leopard referred to France, whose symbol is a rooster.  And that the leopard itself referred to Germany.  Those two nations are the strongest part of the European union, so it stands to reason that the 4 winged leopard signifies the EU.

The last one, however, I'm not sure about --> Is there scriptural justification for saying it's related to Islam?

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I've gotten a little sidetracked,  so let me ask.   Do you understand my answer how that the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 2 shall arise in the last days,  in accordance with Dan 7?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I think I understand, but don't agree with what seems like too much connection between Dan 2 statue and Dan 7 beasts - see the posts Marilyn made for a pictorial guideline of what I think is going on.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks!  I'd seen this before that I think you posted on another thread . . . hard to remember where exactly, as there's so much activity on here.  Where did you get this?  Not that many see this, and still think Dan 7 beasts are mostly in the past (at least that's my perception. 

The lion and bear are pretty much a given I think.  Regarding the leopard, I'd read conjecture that the wings on the leopard referred to France, whose symbol is a rooster.  And that the leopard itself referred to Germany.  Those two nations are the strongest part of the European union, so it stands to reason that the 4 winged leopard signifies the EU.

The last one, however, I'm not sure about --> Is there scriptural justification for saying it's related to Islam?

Hi VA,

I put those diagrams together many years ago. So glad you agree. I was taught all this by godly teachers in the `70`s. The following are some notes from the book, `Fires before the Dawn,` by A. Gardiner. 

               Leopard

Daniel again gives additional information in his predictive vision:-

        "I saw another like a leopard ... and the beast had four heads" (Daniel 7:6)

Julian Franklin, an expert in his field explains in his book "Her­aldry":-

        "French heralds were the first to display Leopards as an insignia"

Robert Gayre who has also thoroughly researched and documented this subject in his book "Nature of Arms"

             "Knights of France had three leopards inscribed on their shields"

  "Charlemange the first Emperor of All Europe, under the banner of three leopards, withstood the onslaught of the mighty armies of Islam"

"During the crusades the Franks (i.e. All European Army) used the insignia of three leopards on their banners and shields." 

 

Obviously the heraldic use of "The Leopard" had direct European connotation.

 

Multiplicity of Government

The four heads on this beast denote a multiplicity of authority or government who have united in common purpose. It is of importance that Daniel visualised this beast in its initial presentation. Six countries of Europe agreed to a commercial unity of purpose in a common market. However, at the time of inauguration, three of these countries, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg combined their representation and voting, into one affiliated entity called the "Benelux". Thus, the European Common Market commenced with exactly four authorities or "Heads", France, Germany, Italy, and Benelux. This was precisely as predicted.

Compositely all evidence undeniably links this third confederacy to the European Common Market.

 

[Marilyn C]

Chapter Seven           

          THE MARCH OF ISLAM

The guided Missile Frigate "H.MAS. SYDNEY" again left Australian shores to spend their second successive Christmas (1991) in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea area. They joined all the Allied ships enforcing United Nations Sanctions in the Middle East.

In spite of current world attention and media coverage being focused continuously and exclusively on the phenomenal metamorphosis in Russia, and/or its former satellite countries; the Middle East is scheduled prophetically, politically and economically to recapture the cynosure of international observation.

The quotation of Bernard Lewis, the American Historian of, and acknowledged authority on. Islamic affairs is worthy of repetition here:-

"The Gulf war was a signal that the end of the cold war does not mean the beginning of peace, but the beginning of a new form of war - a war being waged by Moslem Fundamentalists - against the West."

 

Like a stone thrown into a pond and causing ripples, the Gulf War will make a decisive impact throughout the Middle East and beyond. The resulting effect will create a new alignment of nations previously considered of second-class status. This will cause a remarkable shift in the balance of power. It will forge a confederation of infinite prophetical significance, precisely foretold twenty-five centuries ago.

 

                                     The Nondescript Beast

This fourth beast so arrested and impressed Daniel that he devoted more detail to it, than all the previous creatures put together.

"A fourth beast terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had great iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left." (Daniel 7:7)

There was no resemblance, to this instance, to any specific emblem­atic animal. It was completely diverse to all its predecessors. A ferocious formidable beast, it was absolutely awesome in its unmiti­gated ruthlessness, savage brutality, and universal power. What it could not assimilate, it absolutely crushed.

 

"It had ten horns" (Daniel 7:7)

Horns, in Biblical symbology, invariably denote political power, authority and dominion. Subsequently this is confirmed precisely and unambiguously:-

"The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom" (Daniel 7:24)

 

These kings are obviously contemporaneous and affiliated. They consolidate, control, and govern an immense confederacy of nations, strong and powerful, which conquers and subdues country after country. Eventually it dominates the whole world.

 

It is inconceivable not to be impressed as to the exact equivalent here to the feet and the ten toes of the image seen by King Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:41-44). Each represented a confederacy incorporated in the very last days of this age, and each governed simultaneously by a cabal of exactly ten kings. Obviously they are one and the same.

 

                                    World History in Imagery.

King Nebuchadnezzar had a vision of a characteristic eastern human figure standing erect on the plain of Babylon. Attention was particularly directed and focused on five distinctly defined separate metaphorical components (Daniel 2:31-35).

The interpretation thereof depicted the projected course of history in one broad sweep. It delineated and surveyed four kingdoms with world authority and power, that would succeed each other in strict chronological order from that specific time-slot until the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ. Secular history records a precise & complete fulfillment.

 

                                              Focus on the Feet

The greatest emphasis and the most extensive description however was on the feet and toes of the image. This is the fifth power which was predicted to hold world dominion in the time-slot when God terminates the world systems. In effect Daniel was specifically directed to minutely focus on the feet and toes of the gigantic figure and to completely disregard the intervening two thousand years.

 

                                              Priority Middle East

Focus on the Feet:-

"There stood before you a large statue" (Daniel 2:31)

It is obvious that the whole image was standing on these feet in the immediate vicinity of King Nebuchadnezzar. Elementary and neces­sary of course - yet of immense importance. The feet were thus firmly centred in the Middle East i.e. before the King in Babylon In fact the centre of gravity for each of the delineated sections of the image was directly over the same place. A significant metaphoric illustration which indicated that, as with each of its predecessors the centre of authority of this final confederacy, must be located in' and operate from the Middle East. It is an established and undeni­able fact that, right from the time of the demise of the Roman Empire the Middle East has been the focal political and religious centre of the Moslem World.

The prophetic calendar has been programmed for centuries The Middle East has returned to the centre of the international stage in the precise time-slot predicted.

Increasing tensions and recent developments in that area have made it conspicuously obvious that the world finds itself confronting the consequences of the global march of Islam. The most sadistic and formidable confederacy ever encountered, is emerging from the obscurity, frustration and economic deprivation of centuries. Their complete ruthlessness has been shockingly and vividly demon­strated recently by the Saddam Hussein regime; and earlier by the Revolutionary Government of Iran.

 

                                  Islamic Fundamentalism

 

The "Wall Street Journal" in the timely article reported:-

THE MOSLEM WORLD ON THE MOVE

"Islamic Fundamentalism stretches from Morocco to Indonesia and reaches far south into Black Africa. There are currently more than one billion followers of Islam. It has been the fastest growing force from the last decade. Every day, around the world, at least one thousand men and women perform the basic ceremony for admission to this resurgent movement. This is not confined to traditional Moslem areas, but in sophisticated western countries like Australia."

It is already the second largest religion in America, Europe and Australia.

According to documents obtained by "Newsweek": -

"The oil-rich Moslem republics of the former Soviet Union with a potential population of sixty million people have strongly indicated their desire to amalgamate with their Islamic brother­hood across their borders in the Middle East. The Western Nations have expressed grave concern that they might conceiv­ably take their proportion of the Soviet Nuclear Arsenal with them. This would, at last, confront the world with the long-dreaded "Islamic Bomb"."\

 

                                            Inherent Division

Focus on the Feet -

"The feet and toes were partly of baked clay, and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom" (Daniel 2:41)

Specifically this part of the image was of unique composition. It was a non-coherent mixture obviously subject to inherent division.

A remarkable prediction of the bitter historical and religious parti­tion of the two great branches of Islam that has been in progress since the seventh century:-

Sunni Moslems - Traditional Fundamentalists.

Shi-ite Moslems - Revolutionary, Reactionary and Explosive.

 

The latter is proving the more dynamic, surging like a tempest, unpredictable, and in many cases, uncontrollable. It is inevitable that conflict occurs between the two incompatible factions on every occasion of contact. This has been evidenced In Lebanon; the Iraq-Iran war; the recent genocide in Iraq; and so on. This polarisation will continue to create tension and turmoil. It will inhibit this confederacy realising its full potential. Eventually, however, a predicted paramount dictator will emerge from their midst. He will unite them into the invincible ruthless super-power that will domi­nate the whole world. However, this great dictator merits a chapter to himself.

                                       Final World Power

 

Focus on the Feet -

"Just as you saw the feet and toes ... in the time of those kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed" (Daniel 2:41-44)

As delineated previously, there is an amazing correspondence and coordination between the final kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar`s his­tory-projecting image; and Daniel's fourth confederacy in his predieted alignment of super-powers: -

"The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom ... then the sovereignty of the kingdom will be handed over to the saints of the Most High. His is an everlasting kingdom." (Daniel 7:24-27)

What is recorded for one is intended to apply precisely to the other. They are one and the same.

In summation and correlation, I believe, this fourth world super­power to be the emerging "Force of Islam", controlled by a "Cabal of Ten", and centred in the Middle East.

 

                                                        Time - Slot

These four world confederacies emerged consecutively consequent upon:-

"Striving around the Mediterranean Sea" (Daniel 7:2)

 

1.  The British Empire came into being subsequent to the Napoleonic War - Nineteenth Century.

2.  The Soviet emerged subsequent to World War 1.

3.  The Common Market formed subsequent to World War 2.

4.  The Force of Islam will only find its full expression subsequent to World War 3.

 

 

  

 

[Vine Abider]

@Marilyn C well that's the longest post I've seen in my short time on this forum!  LOL  Thanks, but it'll certainly take a little time to digest all that.

I'd not heard the leopard being ascribed to France, but rather Germany, but admittedly I thought the argument was a little weak.  The British Empire, USA & Russia seem apparent to me in the lion, eagles wings and bear.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

@Marilyn C well that's the longest post I've seen in my short time on this forum!  LOL  Thanks, but it'll certainly take a little time to digest all that.

I'd not heard the leopard being ascribed to France, but rather Germany, but admittedly I thought the argument was a little weak.  The British Empire, USA & Russia seem apparent to me in the lion, eagles wings and bear.

Oh, haven`t you met our dear `retrobyter? ` Talking of long posts. 

Now it was the knights of France and the first emperor of all Europe that had the Leopards on its banner. Plus, there is no other great Federation than the EU for that time slot. 

Glad you could read all of the notes on Islam. If you want any more from that book, `Fires before the Dawn, ` then I can post some. perhaps on the anti-Christ?