What does it mean that God is sovereign?

[Roymond]

On 11/30/2022 at 3:16 PM, missmuffet said:

What does it mean that God is sovereign?

https://www.gotquestions.org

ANSWER

God’s sovereignty is one of the most important principles in Christian theology, as well as one of its most hotly debated. Whether or not God is actually sovereign is usually not a topic of debate; all mainstream Christian sects agree that God is preeminent in power and authority. God’s sovereignty is a natural consequence of His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. What’s subject to disagreement is to what extent God applies His sovereignty—specifically, how much control He exerts over the wills of men. When we speak of the sovereignty of God, we mean He rules the universe, but then the debate begins over when and where His control is direct and when it is indirect.

God is described in the Bible as all-powerful and all-knowing (Psalm 147:5), outside of time (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 90:2), and responsible for the creation of everything (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1). These divine traits set the minimum boundary for God’s sovereign control in the universe, which is to say that nothing in the universe occurs without God’s permission. God has the power and knowledge to prevent anything He chooses to prevent, so anything that does happen must, at the very least, be “allowed” by God.

At the same time, the Bible describes God as offering humanity choices (Deuteronomy 30:15–19), holding them personally responsible for their sins (Exodus 20:5), and being unhappy with some of their actions (Numbers 25:3). The fact that sin exists at all proves that not all things that occur are the direct actions of God, who is holy. The reality of human volition (and human accountability) sets the maximum boundary for God’s sovereign control over the universe, which is to say there is a point at which God chooses to allow things that He does not directly cause.

The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question. Often, the concept of divine sovereignty is oversimplified. We tend to assume that, if God is not directly, overtly, purposefully driving some event, then He is somehow not sovereign. The cartoon version of sovereignty depicts a God who must do anything that He can do, or else He is not truly sovereign.

Of course, such a cartoonish view of God’s sovereignty is logically false. If a man were to put an ant in a bowl, the “sovereignty” of the man over the ant is not in doubt. The ant may try to crawl out, and the man may not want this to happen. But the man is not forced to crush the ant, drown it, or pick it up. The man, for reasons of his own, may choose to let the ant crawl away, but the man is still in control. There is a difference between allowing the ant to leave the bowl and helplessly watching as it escapes. The cartoon version of God’s sovereignty implies that, if the man is not actively holding the ant inside the bowl, then he must be unable to keep it in there at all.

The illustration of the man and the ant is at least a vague parallel to God’s sovereignty over mankind. God has the ability to do anything, to take action and intervene in any situation, but He often chooses to act indirectly or to allow certain things for reasons of His own. His will is furthered in any case. God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. Everything that happens is, at the very least, the result of God’s permissive will. This holds true even if certain specific things are not what He would prefer. The right of God to allow mankind’s free choices is just as necessary for true sovereignty as His ability to enact His will, wherever and however He chooses.

It's interesting that you mention the philosophical term "omnipotence" and then use the Biblical definition, which was well said enough I will quote it again:

"The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation."

That's what the Greek παντοκράτωρ (pan-toh-KRA-tor) means, "one who holds all the power"or "all-ruler".  It doesn't mean that any wild thing someone may dream up is within God's power to do -- which is what "omnipotent" implies -- it means that whatever power there is in heaven and Earth is God's.  A King makes a fair illustration; when it is said that a king has absolute power, it doesn't mean he can order horses to fly, or even put Humpty Dumpty back together again, it means that whatever is possible within his kingdom, he can command it and it will be done.

One important difference between the philosophical definition and the biblical one is that the philosophical version is abstract and impersonal, while the biblical one is very personal:  since all the power there is, is God's, that means that my power to type on my laptop is God's, not in the sense that He could stop me but in the sense that He is actively maintaining the atoms and energy of my eyes, my thoughts, my fingers, the keyboard, the display, the internet that connects us...  all of that works/runs from God's energy.  And it isn't His energy "on loan", it's His actively applied energy to keep all this in existence and make it function.

That song, "Every move you make, every breath you take" isn't quite right:  it's not that God is watching you, it's that God is actively keeping you in existence and supplying the energy for your life.

[Roymond]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:17 PM, Mr. M said:

Yes, but I do not use the terminology "Holy Trinity" as it is not presented that way in the scriptures.

It ignores the relationship between the three with regard to authority, as they are expressed

 

So what if it isn't in the scriptures?  Jesus promised the Apostles(and that the Holy Spirit would lead His church into all truth, something Paul must have had in mind when he told us that the Spirit gives teachers to the church.  It was some of those teachers who searched the scriptures and summed up everything they tell us about God and applied the term "trinity".  The concept was being taught before the word was used because the Holy Spirit led those teachers.

edit:  it doesn't "ignore" any relationship(s), it just wasn't meant to address that; it's only an assertion that the One God is in Three Persons.  The rest is the province of further theology.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Roymond
afterthought

[Roymond]

On 11/30/2022 at 7:09 PM, missmuffet said:

You are splitting hairs. I call it the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One God with three different persons. You call it the God Head Triune? I have never heard of that. 

There are (old) hymns where "Godhead Triune" is found, but the terms occur that way to fit the poetry of the lyrics.

[Roymond]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:20 PM, Vine Abider said:

Now we're really talking The Mystery of mysteries here - I've yet to have heard anyone who claims to have the 3-in-1 God all figured out!  And to try and do so, in my book, is ultimately an effort without profit. (like sheep trying to figure out trigonometry)

Yeah.  People say the doctrine of the Trinity is impossible to comprehend; the humorous thing is that it isn't meant to be comprehended, it's just meant to summarize what we know yet don't understand.  It can be described, but that's it.

So trying to understand it is a baa-aad idea. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Roymond
missing negative!

[Roymond]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:09 PM, missmuffet said:

Did you see my previous post? It explains the Trinity. 

To be precise, it explains why we have the doctrine of the Trinity (quite well); no one can explain the Trinity, only describe.

[Roymond]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:38 AM, kwikphilly said:

Now this here I cannot agree with,I'll try to explain why:

You are saying that Sovereignty originated with our Father..  that to me would imply that Father God is separate or different or even that He Existed Before or as Above Jesus and Holy Spirit...." They"are One and that cannot be- you used the word " delegated" which I think is more applicable that ' originated"- do you see where I'm coming from?

The Son is eternally begotten from the Father, and that begetting is the source of the Son's authority, so the word "delegated" is at best sloppy theology because there was never a when when the Son did not have authority from the Father.  Thus "originated" is the better of the two, though "originates" would be even better since the authority the Father gives the Son is continuous just as the Son's being begotten is continuous.

[Roymond]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:56 AM, Mr. M said:

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

what then is your understanding  of "only-begotten Son", if not that God created

His Son first, and all else was created with Him, through Him, for Him, etc...

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

My understanding is that the letter to the Colossians is a bit theologically

advanced for those young in the faith. 

The Son is not created, He is begotten, continually.  Your questions teeters on the verge of Arianism, and I'm not certain it can be rescued.

[Roymond]

On 12/1/2022 at 7:41 AM, kwikphilly said:

Blessings MrM

   I'm back and now I can do what I want to do more easily from my computer so as to give a proper response to your wonderful question! You asked what my Understanding is of "only Begotten Son"-if NOT that God Created.,..I'll begin here with your quote of Scripture

Here the reference to Jesus is regarding His Birth as a human being -though He is both Fully God & fully human ....Of course Adam was the first human but He was Created a complete & fully formed adult human being.....Jesus,in human form and as the Manifested Image of Almighty God was Born out of a mortal woman-this does not change His Distinct person of the GodHead,Jesus was not created,He Always Was/Is

Here Paul makes it very clear that Gods "offspring" is Christ......and this same Jesus was WITH God

 

A former rabbi who'd converted and was Lutheran had a really strange view of this:  that the first moment of material existence was at the Incarnation and that time flowed outward both backwards and forwards from that moment.  It was thus the fact that God the Son could be "enmaterialed" that made it possible for there to be anything material.

It's weird to contemplate, but I love the way it puts Christ at the center!

[Roymond]

On 12/1/2022 at 7:54 AM, kwikphilly said:

Hey Nooby!

   Which? Being on the phone,asking someone to "wait" or BOTH!!!!Yes,I agree

We count on you to trot things out when they're ready.

[Roymond]

On 12/1/2022 at 8:24 AM, Alive said:

Ok--perhaps you are being unclear and I misunderstand, but the language used here suggests a very dangerous position is being suggested.

The Word--the LOGOS--has always been self-dependant and self-existant in His being. The discussion of the man 'Jesus' being born into this world and that mystery of mysteries can be reasonably examined, but we will never fully understand the 'Godhead' and I suggest it is a place to tread softly.

Just sayin'.

Jesus is fully God and fully man...nobody can grasp this. We are to just Trust.

I have to pounce here:  the Word, the Logos, is NOT self-dependent, He is continually and eternally begotten from the Father.  The above assertion is also a very dangerous position being suggested.