The Important People In The Church

[Michael37]

@Starise How are things sitting with you now regarding your congregational comfort zone? 

I find if I put aside my personal preferences I can go anywhere regardless of the imperfections until I reach a tipping point that concludes my involvement with a particular group.

Hebrews 10:24-25 speak of provoking one another to love and good works plus not being isolated from the ministry and fellowship of other Christians, whether online or in person. 

I'm here for this reason.

Blessings from Michael37 🙏

[Neighbor]

On 12/3/2022 at 9:29 AM, Starise said:

I see Christians being fed two different messages at many churches. "We are all the same, no matter what we do" Jesus loves little toilet bowl cleaners too Be that happy nursery worker in there with the babies every week. Then we have the periodic recognition times usually in main service. "Let's have a hand for our new, ms. so and so, our latest paid position" Everyone claps for them. Close friends with pastor-check. Comes from old church family-check. Have they even considered the other 300 members at all? Pastors being front and center always get double honor, yet we are told the most important work is outside the church. How many pastors do we see cleaning toilets or heads of committees actually doing any of the work they fully expect others to do? Oh, but the Lord didn't make us toilet bowl cleaners, no. Our skills are too important for that.

As former chief toilet bowl cleaner of some 50 plus toilets, one who has had awesome pastoring and teaching, including from one pastor that literally couldn't change a lightbulb, it was my humble pleasure to ensure that no one noticed the clean sanity facilities and instead were focused upon the message delivered by several Holy Spirit led pastors/teachers. 

That no one applauded the clean toilet they used is a good thing!  For if they did it would  also mean there were days they had noticed they were not clean, and had been distracted from receiving the full benefit of the worship and teaching by those that devote many hours per week  ministering of what the Spirit has revealed of the word the Bible for them to share. I often told our crews, "silence is our blessing".

My senior pastor did not like the praise of individuals for his messages, he felt it came from Satan as a temptation to puff him up with pride, yet he endured much of it including the celebrations of time served  at that post anniversaries. In his case some 45 years and still going.

My own pleasure was to find a young family man  that was willing to take on the toilets ( and the 10 acres of church/school facilities) and I could quietly leave retiring at age 74 to other less strenuous aspects of life in the flesh.

Helps is a blessed gift of the Holy Spirit however it is manifested. Better to serve in that capacity  in quiet solitude now than to receive one's reward today from man.

 I see the church body as a old time watch works. Each cog and each lever is necessary and must function consistently.  If the smallest of cogs behind the face does not work, then there is glory in the face being accurate only twice a day, and it becomes a rather useless thing to carry around.

So where is my glory my praise?  I don't care a wit, except to think of the humor that there might be a garland for best toilets cleaned awarded to place at my Lord's feet one day- Ha silly thought , eh?

 

[Starise]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

@Starise How are things sitting with you now regarding your congregational comfort zone? 

I find if I put aside my personal preferences I can go anywhere regardless of the imperfections until I reach a tipping point that concludes my involvement with a particular group.

Hebrews 10:24-25 speak of provoking one another to love and good works plus not being isolated from the ministry and fellowship of other Christians, whether online or in person. 

I'm here for this reason.

Blessings from Michael37 🙏

It is interesting and timely that you should bring this up again and thank you for asking BTW. 

I attend a men's group at this church and I usually don't vent these kinds of things in that group because I realize that as church leaders they are doing their very best and to vent would be focusing on all the bad stuff .vs all the good they are doing. I have mostly looked at this like something I personally needed to work through.

This past Sat. though I did some venting, which in hindsight I wish I had not done. The next day was Sun and we were at church. Right after the service I was approached by a church elder who also leads worship on a rotation basis. It appears to me that since one of the issues was me not being used in the worship, someone said something in the leadership grapevine to this man who offered to 'let' me play under him.

I won't share my experiences working under him before, suffice it to say that they were NOT good ones. I'll leave it at that. So you might imagine that I wasn't necessarily thrilled at being asked to be under this leader once again, and it being immediately after that earlier discussion seemed like he was throwing me a crumb in an obligatory manner. " Oh we had better put this fire out" sort of thing. I was supposed to be on some kind of a rotation, but they mainly only want me for streaming in the back room most of the time. And it seems to never have occurred to anyone that since I was a worship leader for a very long time, I might fancy a try at it occasionally. I was willing to be under another leader and have been while here.

For me a lot of it is about creative freedom. At this church you are only allowed to play what they ask you to play and they never let me sing on a WT in spite of the fact that I am in the church chior. I think the whole setup is just odd there. Everyone is 'funneled' into where THEY want you. I spend almost 30.00 a week on violin lessons, have been playing over 8 years now, but since they always ask another person to play I am so rusty by the time I am finally asked that I start to slip technically. Even if I'm not top notch I could make a nice accmpaniment to the other violinist, but I can play. I wouldn't mind playing something simple for pre service at a church some time. I have played in Irish groups for Pete's sake.

I don't think these kinds of things should have to be begged for or initiated. The leaders in charge are responsible to nurture ALL under them.  I have already seen how it works here. I will take @Marilyn C's advice and  have begun to look at places where I can do the Lord's work outside of this country fish bowl. I'll give them what they want, a closed inner circle of certain people. I feel a certain sense of freedom in my decision. I am no longer obligated to submit to poor leadership with only self seeking goals. I know that's tough, but it either works or it doesn't. I'm pretty binary like that.

[Starise]

14 hours ago, Neighbor said:

As former chief toilet bowl cleaner of some 50 plus toilets, one who has had awesome pastoring and teaching, including from one pastor that literally couldn't change a lightbulb, it was my humble pleasure to ensure that no one noticed the clean sanity facilities and instead were focused upon the message delivered by several Holy Spirit led pastors/teachers. 

That no one applauded the clean toilet they used is a good thing!  For if they did it would  also mean there were days they had noticed they were not clean, and had been distracted from receiving the full benefit of the worship and teaching by those that devote many hours per week  ministering of what the Spirit has revealed of the word the Bible for them to share. I often told our crews, "silence is our blessing".

My senior pastor did not like the praise of individuals for his messages, he felt it came from Satan as a temptation to puff him up with pride, yet he endured much of it including the celebrations of time served  at that post anniversaries. In his case some 45 years and still going.

My own pleasure was to find a young family man  that was willing to take on the toilets ( and the 10 acres of church/school facilities) and I could quietly leave retiring at age 74 to other less strenuous aspects of life in the flesh.

Helps is a blessed gift of the Holy Spirit however it is manifested. Better to serve in that capacity  in quiet solitude now than to receive one's reward today from man.

 I see the church body as a old time watch works. Each cog and each lever is necessary and must function consistently.  If the smallest of cogs behind the face does not work, then there is glory in the face being accurate only twice a day, and it becomes a rather useless thing to carry around.

So where is my glory my praise?  I don't care a wit, except to think of the humor that there might be a garland for best toilets cleaned awarded to place at my Lord's feet one day- Ha silly thought , eh?

 

I appreciate you sharing @Neighbor

I want to be VERY clear, this has nothing to do with me getting praise and everything to do with using my gifts.

If I could use my gifts in secret, I likely would, but the very nature of my gifts is to edify and that's hard to do alone. 

I have helped in other areas, like cleanup day or moving day for a member, things like that. I'm never too good to do any of that.

[Neighbor]

9 minutes ago, Starise said:

If I could use my gifts in secret, I likely would, but the very nature of my gifts is to edify and that's hard to do alone. 

Really? But surely one can edify without concern for praise for oneself, or jealousy of any kind whatsoever about the praise another might be receiving?  

Can't they? ???

 I do love a phrase President Ronald Reagan was fond of sharing as advice ;  

“There is no limit to the amount of good you can do if you don't care who gets the credit.” ― Ronald Reagan

[Starise]

4 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Really? But surely one can edify without concern for praise for oneself, or jealousy of any kind whatsoever about the praise another might be receiving?  

Can't they? ???

 I do love a phrase President Ronald Reagan was fond of sharing as advice ;  

“There is no limit to the amount of good you can do if you don't care who gets the credit.” ― Ronald Reagan

Imagine for a minute you play an instrument. Yes you can play it alone. I often do, but is that really the intent we should have if we learn to play one?

Why did David submit his poems to the chief musician? 

Apparently you don't think I'm humble enough.Maybe you would be correct.  I never want to be haughty. If you are correct then I want nothing more than to be put in my place because God gets all the glory.

"Others" should not be getting the glory either. Right?

[Mije]

Great thread @Starise! One day after church my kids were listening to my wife and I talk about something similar to this and my son coined the phrase, ‘The Power 14’. He suggested that at each church we had attended there seemed to be a close knit group who controlled and ran everything. And looking back I think he was right! This power 14 exists in churches and although they ‘preach’ equality and access they really are lords over the process and the people they deign to serve.

Kind of funny now that I am much older- I watch the younguns scrambling and positioning themselves and I just smile. And like someone here suggested, our meetings are really led by mere men and women so they will not by any means be perfect. Those of us who are perfect will just have to keep scrubbing toilets and humming away happily😂.

[Neighbor]

Just now, Starise said:

Why did David submit his poems to the chief musician? 

For his personal glory? Nah! For praise? Nah!

Because he was filled with the certainty of his eternal security and that just overflowed regardless of whatever challenge, whatever criticism came his way?  Yes I think that must be so.

David removed his garb of high office to celebrate and dance before his Lord humbly without concern for the commentary yea or nay from  anyone. Is it edifying of the body of Christ Jesus  today? Sure it is!

 

 

[Starise]

5 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

For his personal glory? Nah! For praise? Nah!

Because he was filled with the certainty of his eternal security and that just overflowed regardless of whatever challenge, whatever criticism came his way?  Yes I think that must be so.

David removed his garb of high office to celebrate and dance before his Lord humbly without concern for the commentary yea or nay from  anyone. Is it edifying of the body of Christ Jesus  today? Sure it is!

 

 

And I think David is an excellent example of both a spiritual and a fallible human being.

My main point was that David submitted his poems to the chief musician to make music to them to be played publicly.

If one day we are called before the Lord and held to account for what we did with what He gave us, and I say I only played my instruments in my closet, what do you think His response to me will be?

If you are a toilet bowl cleaner, it is your resposibility to clean more than only your home toilet.

[Neighbor]

3 minutes ago, Mije said:

He suggested that at each church we had attended there seemed to be a close knit group who controlled and ran everything. And looking back I think he was right! This power 14 exists in churches and although they ‘preach’ equality and access they really are lords over the process and the people they deign to serve.

They preach equality?

There is not equality of duty, nor responsibility, within the church body of my Lord  body. It is a body and not all can be the head. There are authorities within my Lord's Church body, all under him.

God teaches humility and obedience to all of the body for His sake and to His glory. In that all are equal, but in office? No!

If any army had all generals, or all corporals, would it have victories of any kind? Likely not. What it must have is disciplined soldiers at all levels of duty and privilege.

Paise God for the call to any station of service of any kind within His army!