Continued From: Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Psalm 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that does righteousness at all times.

And this is our righteousness...

James

4:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. 

Mercy triumphs over judgment.

3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

This work found in your testimony is what Paul means by "those who sow to the Spirit,

will by the Spirit reap eternal life.

 

I deleted that post because it revealed too much about an actual event but I'm glad that you were able to read it, my friend. The wisdom of God is unfathomable to the natural man. I'll write about it again since it is indeed worthwhile to share, but I'll be more mindful of confidentiality this time around.

Walking in the judgment of the Lord is the same as walking in His Spirit. I will share an example of how this is so.

A client of the transitional housing shelter where I work assaulted me one evening, and such an incident invariably results in the expulsion of the offender from the program. The Spirit has charged me with dealing uprightly and truthfully at all times, and so I compiled and submitted a report of the incident as required. I notified the member of management on call knowing full well what would happen the next morning. 

Being a man, I grappled with anger and alarm about this client's actions. I refrained from answering him in kind but this is a small thing; we can achieve this by conditioning the body and mind (practice). It's not as difficult to abstain from answering violence with violence as some make it out to be. 

The next day, a council of managers called me to meet with them regarding the assault. I recounted the incident with my own words and, satisfied with the consistency and truthfulness of my report, the program manager informed me that they would be expelling this client in a few minutes. Was there anything I would like to say?

This was when the Spirit of the Lord gave me words to speak, and so I said that we shouldn't expel the client. We should give him another chance.

One of the senior managers, intrigued by this outlandish proposal, challenged me to explain myself. Why should we give this client another chance?

I related something which I overheard this client say following the incident, words which spoke of the agony and suffering he was going through. Everyone deserves a second chance, I said to the members of management in the room, and I held nothing against this man. I wish to see him succeed, not fail. 

His case manager, who was silent until this moment, looked at me with tears and gratitude. She confirmed the anguish her client was suffering and explained the source of that anguish to us all. She was so glad that I spoke about mercy and another chance for her client, and she agreed with me on this. 

The program manager smiled and stated that this client would not be expelled after all. Would I be comfortable with this man entering the conference room? Of course!, I said. 

The fellow was called in and came straight toward me. He was weeping and embraced me, asking for forgiveness; I assured him that was already forgiven, and all that I wanted to see was his success. From that day forward we developed a close and warm friendship, and this pleased the Lord.

When we walk in the judgment of the Lord at all times, we will not be surprised nor dismayed when our Lord Jesus Christ returns.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by Marathoner
typo

[Mr. M]

4 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Walking in the judgment of the Lord is the same as walking His Spirit.

Completely agree.

[Ocean]

22 hours ago, Walter and Deborah said:

But popularity is no basis of knowing what is right or wrong; we must search the Scriptures to find out what is the real truth (John 17:17)

While I certainly agree with this, I am not quite persuaded by your (very long) op.  I would tend to believe that scripture does indicate a 'rapture' of believers but I am not post tribulation either.

I am always amazed at how many different interpretations people seem able to achieve.  

What do people do when their popular belief does not come to fruition?  On the belief that a rapture will occur, I have an interesting note.  I know of a church that believed the rapture was imminent and people in the congregation even had their pets euthanized so that they would not suffer when their owners were raptured.  This presumption of 'any minute now' was based on some popular book being presented.

I've had some beliefs proven very wrong in my time on this earth and you grow or possibly shrink wondering what else is not true.

I just wish people would not be so adamant about their personal choices and stick to the gospel as the gospel and focus on Christ more than anything else and not all the non-salvic issues that present through different people.

[Ocean]

3 minutes ago, Ocean said:

but I am not post tribulation either

whoops...meant to say not pre tribulation 

[Marathoner]

27 minutes ago, Ocean said:

While I certainly agree with this, I am not quite persuaded by your (very long) op.  I would tend to believe that scripture does indicate a 'rapture' of believers but I am not post tribulation either.

I am always amazed at how many different interpretations people seem able to achieve.  

What do people do when their popular belief does not come to fruition?  On the belief that a rapture will occur, I have an interesting note.  I know of a church that believed the rapture was imminent and people in the congregation even had their pets euthanized so that they would not suffer when their owners were raptured.  This presumption of 'any minute now' was based on some popular book being presented.

I've had some beliefs proven very wrong in my time on this earth and you grow or possibly shrink wondering what else is not true.

I just wish people would not be so adamant about their personal choices and stick to the gospel as the gospel and focus on Christ more than anything else and not all the non-salvic issues that present through different people.

I agree with the consensus of brethren on this matter as well. The OP seems to me to be much ado over non-essential doctrine, making a mountain of an anthill as it were.

What matters, then? The apostle James imparted this to us in the scripture,

If anyone thinks himself to be religious, yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:26-27 NASB)

Our brother @Mr. M has shared these things (and more) with us, and so we know what truly matters. If we proclaim that we trust in the Lord but walk in such a way that we're tossed about by the capricious winds of man's traditions which seem wise in our own eyes, then our deeds say otherwise. Indeed, this is the shortcoming of religion which has the outward appearance of godliness: the outside of the cup appears clean, but the inside of that cup is stained and foul. 

There's also the matter of anxiety which the young and vulnerable alike are prone to being snared by: "Am I am doing enough for the Lord? Am I witnessing properly? Oh, but I was quiet in the grocery store line! I should have said something!" With regard to rapture doctrines, some who are given to heaping condemnation upon others relish the terror which their fleshly obsession inculcates in the young and vulnerable:

"When the Lord comes, will I be good enough? Will He find faith in me? Will I be left behind?"

... as if the Lord Himself is not with us here and now! I encourage all who find themselves wrestling with terror and uncertainty to remember the promise of the Lord: He promised Himself to us, my friends. This is why it was good for the Son of Man to ascend to sit with our Father upon His throne: He will send the Comforter --- the Spirit of the living God --- to dwell with us and among us. 

Trust in the Lord! This is what we focus upon in this world. What we believe (or don't believe) regarding raptures and such is inconsequential. The OP fails to make a case telling us otherwise.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by Marathoner

[Mr. M]

Here is a rallying cry for the church:

Until the last day saints!

John 6:

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose

nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and

believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

and I will raise him up at the last day. 

[Mama Etna]

 I am not a dispensationalist and think arguing over this kind of thing is picking at gnats.

[Mr. M]

29 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

and I will raise him up at the last day. 

If the dead in Christ are raised first, and then those alive at His coming,

and He has clearly stated that He will gather His on the last day,

I have always rejected these various rapture theories. We do not

have to be removed to avoid the wrath to come.

See the judgments of Egypt, with Israel in their midst; as a type.

1 Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,

that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

will by no means precede those who are asleep. 

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. 

And the dead in Christ will rise first. 

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up 

together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Mr. M
added scriptures

[Mr. M]

8 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

I have always rejected these various rapture theories.

Here is something else for proponents of a rapture to consider:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great

God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

Paul calls the day of the Lord our blessed hope. So if any or all rapture theories

are incorrect, they are literally turning the blessed hope into a false hope.

Think on that, silently.

[TheBlade]

It is wonderful you OP wrote all that. There is no "when did it first start". I am not sure why you went to all this yet didn't search on this "when". I did many years ago which anyone can takes more then putting a word in google you wont find it that easy. Yet is on the internet still. I wanted to find anyone talking about caught up before the tribulation but right after the 12 went home. I found a hymn writer and preacher you could see the scrolls and what he wrote. They said it was 400ad. That got to me since I thought it was much to late. Then some time later on TBN Jeffery Grant...opps Grant Jeffrey. Had a show on TBN and was talking about this very same hymn writer showing the scrolls showing what that Hymn writer wrote about. It was Jesus coming for the church before the great tribulation. He said written 300-400ad. 

Later he had shows talking about caught up being talked/preached before 300ad. This was written in a bible around 1600. I can go on and on. There are many preachers that also talked about all this and more over the years. A for me clear red flag is ":Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine". Beware? Christ never said this nor written anywhere in NT. You do know you can use the same words just insert "post or mid". 

See I know all the verse everyone else does. And we all know with in those some no one can truly understand, explain. So I look over my life and all the wonders He has done you know like fruit. Why did it happen? It came by blindly believing what He said. So I listen to all  of this yet what can I not you by I prove? I can't prove pre mid post. So I must just take Him at His word. He will come take me where He is He cannot lie. He never said where I am He will be. One we see we hear voice shout trump dead rise we change we all go together to meet and be with Him forever. Then He comes and all see and hear a trump and He sends His angels to gather. Jude 1:14? Here's one that some say its not saints but those holy ones are really His angels. haha

He is coming as one said "I am post but if He comes pre I am ready now". That man of God knew all about this studied it so many years yet knew post pre can not be proven. Best to be ready now. How awful is that right? To always be watching ready looking up. Thinking about Him every moment of every day. Knowing your going home any moment. To watch how you think talk. I will never miss Him. I will never see my Fathers wrath coming on this world and all in it. This is what I believe not telling anyone what this or that verse really means. If I offended forgive me