The Three Main Views of Hell

[Amigo42]

17 hours ago, Marathoner said:

In this, I'm in agreement with my brethren who believe in eternal torment. We differ regarding the disposition of the condemned who are cast into the fire --- I'm convinced this is eternal destruction, according to God who is merciful --- but it is the custom of philosophical pagans to proclaim that truth cannot be known by us. That's false

Thank you for your thoughts, and I respect your viewpoints.  I will ask though does the God of love that Jesus described really sound like someone who'd punish ANY of his children even the worst ones with eternal torture? That sounds more like a Satanic and sadistic person who'd even think of that.  God is love, and it might surprise people that God might not actually judge like people think he might.  In fact, during the life review process it appears instead that he allows souls to judge themselves based on how well they did guiding their human self.

[Amigo42]

15 hours ago, Waggles said:

In an environment that is timeless and without reference to days and years both eternal life and eternal condemnation simply are. There is no tomorrow or next week.

Bodies in the lake of fire are not on fire as we see wood burn, for this is a spiritual torment, a spiritual death and a spiritual punishment.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is not just being cast out from the glory of the kingdom of light, but the most horrifying knowledge that there is no parole, no comeback, no redemption, no hope.

Luke 16:22  The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 
23  and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 
24  And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 
25  But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 
26  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

[Vine Abider]

12 minutes ago, Amigo42 said:

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

Point of reference here regarding "Christ-like."  People can go all over the place with what this means, according to what their opinion of who Christ is, what He did or what they think His motives were.  (for instance, many Republicans think their actions are Christ-like . . . while many Democrats would disagree and think their actions are the more Christ-like  )

And your point seems to be that some unbelievers live more like Christ than actual regenerated Christians who have His life in them.  However, at the end of the day (so to speak), the thing that matters is this: Did they accept Christ in order for Him to come into them and indwell them?  (then it's up to them as to how much they cooperate with the new life that's been planted in them, and thereby do His works accordingly)

So I cannot tell (as the old song goes) how He will handle those who "never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible," but this I know, He will be completely righteous in His handling of them.

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

1John 2:1  My little children, these things I write you that ye may not sin. And if one sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 
2  and HE is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and booklets were opened: and another booklet was opened, which is that of life: and the dead were judged out of the things written in the booklets, according to their works. 
13  And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead in them: and they were judged each according to their works. 

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

In fact, during the life review process it appears instead that he allows souls to judge themselves based on how well they did guiding their human self.

What evidence do you have that any of what you allege is true?

Malachi 4:1  "For look! The day is about to come, burning like an oven, and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble. The coming day will consume them," says YHWH of hosts. "It will not leave behind for them root or branch.

Psalm 21:8  Your hand will find all your enemies; your right hand will find those who hate you. 
9  You will make them like your fiery furnace at the time of your appearance. YHWH will swallow them in his wrath and fire will consume them. 
10  You will destroy their offspring from the earth, and their descendants from among the children of humankind.

[Waggles]

Hebrews 10:26  For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 
27  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries. 
28  Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 
29  How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace? 
30  For we know the one who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 
31  It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

[Vine Abider]

5 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

 In fact, during the life review process it appears instead that he allows souls to judge themselves based on how well they did guiding their human self.

45 minutes ago, Waggles said:

What evidence do you have that any of what you allege is true?

I'm wondering about that too!

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

What about people who live in the Amazon or other jungles and never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible but live more Christ-like than some churchgoers?

From Romans below, it appears everyone is given a measure of truth. From ancient times, to the present, from the deepest jungles to cities.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Two questions:

·         Who are “they?” Israel, gentiles, everyone who is alive, everyone who has ever lived.

·         Without excuse of what?

I do not know, but my reasoning suggests it depends on how much truth one has received, and what was done with that truth.

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

[Marathoner]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Point of reference here regarding "Christ-like."  People can go all over the place with what this means, according to what their opinion of who Christ is, what He did or what they think His motives were.  (for instance, many Republicans think their actions are Christ-like . . . while many Democrats would disagree and think their actions are the more Christ-like  )

And your point seems to be that some unbelievers live more like Christ than actual regenerated Christians who have His life in them.  However, at the end of the day (so to speak), the thing that matters is this: Did they accept Christ in order for Him to come into them and indwell them?  (then it's up to them as to how much they cooperate with the new life that's been planted in them, and thereby do His works accordingly)

So I cannot tell (as the old song goes) how He will handle those who "never heard of Jesus or seen the Bible," but this I know, He will be completely righteous in His handling of them.

Hence the dead are judged according to their works.

Waggles has already shared relevant scripture, so there's no point in sharing those passages again. The Son of God judges all, including us, so we know who the Judge is. He is indeed merciful so the age-old question, "What about those who never heard nor learned about Christ?", was already answered by the testimony of not only the scriptures, but also by our own testimony. 

I know that the matter is not as cut-and-dried as some make it out to be. This is what some who lose their way argue against; but they are reacting to a harsh religion that is not pure in the sight of God the Father. No man can say that all of the dead will be redeemed; nor can anyone say that all of the dead will be cast into the lake of fire at the end of all things. 

The scripture tells us who among man will be cast into the lake of fire: those who worship the Beast, and those whose names are not written in the book of life. 

The Lord is not a harsh judge like some men and women prove themselves to be. He is righteous and perfect in every way.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Marathoner
Typo

[Roymond]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

 

 

My interpretation is reinforced by the presence of repetition in the provided phrase “ages of ages”. Classical Biblical languages commonly use repetition as a device to generate a superlative sentiment. I would therefore interpret “into the ages of ages” to be as close to meaning ‘forever’ as is possible for ancient Greek – i.e. not just a very long time, but an infinitely, immeasurably long period. Even in literal English, this phrase is a multiplier (“ages” x “ages”) - with the clear intent of emphasizing longevity.

So even with the information you provided, I don’t see “Forever and ever” as a “a poor translation”.

 

“In the early church both universalists and annihilationists took this to mean an extremely long time but finite; to the universalists it meant however long it took the specific soul to realize it needed God's goodness; to the annihilationists it meant however long it took a specific soul to let go of iniquity and just vanish.”

Maybe some did, and maybe some didn’t – what’s that to me?

The early church grew up speaking the Greek that we have to laboriously learn, so they had an advantage in understanding it that we not not.  So when more than one church Father has the same thing to say about an "aiwn" (aye-own), I take notice.  The Fathers are also the ones that the Holy Spirit gave to the church to lead it into all truth against the heretics who kept bringing in pagan ideas, and so should be listened to closely.

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

Where does scripture claim that hell is about torturing the soul into letting go of iniquity?

Jesus used the phrase "until he has paid the last", which indicates that there will be a point when a person's iniquity will be paid for.  The question at that point is what happens to the soul which has "paid the last":  does it cease to exist, or does it enter into eternal life.

It's helpful to remember here that letting go of iniquity is what we do when we become Christians.  As spiritually dead people we are not capable of choosing Jesus, all we are capable of is surrender, letting go, the only question being whether we surrender in hope or in despair.

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

I read many places scripture where the punishment is stated as a ‘forever’ punishment. You provide a definition that, to me, reinforces that interpretation. I don’t even have to look at the Greek for myself. There is no plausible way that the Author intended to convey the limitations of the punishment in the prescribed texts. The obvious point of the relevant passages is to emphasize the punishment’s longevity; explicitly, overtly.

Both the universalists and the annihilationists among the Fathers recognized this; no one said it would be quick; indeed the comparison was made with the existence of the universe by those who saw the days in Genesis 1 as "divine days" (since God was the only one at that stage capable of measuring time) and so regarded the universe as being uncountably old (an interesting note there was that God is called "the Ancient of Days", which was taken to mean having been in relation to the universe and the Earth for longer than humans could calculate on the premise that if humans could calculate an age it wouldn't be "ancient"): as old as the universe is, so would be the time of punishment (which if we go with modern science would indicate that the wicked will suffer for 13.8 billion years).  That's not to say that this is definitely what it means, just to show that they took the "ages of ages" seriously.  we should also remember that 'outside' of heaven an age was considered to be one or more thousand years, so an "age of ages" would at a minimum be a million years, and if we throw in the concept that a day is as a thousand years, then an age would come out to be 365 billion years.

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

The argument being presented to me is essentially that there is a remote possibility that the words used could also refer to something “finite”. Mere possibility arguments are weak arguments. They don’t impact the overall impression I get from looking at the topic from the available textual evidence.

 

Actually the argument is that we have taken up a Latin concept and used it to turn the Hebrew and Greek concept of "an age" into something it didn't mean.  From the perspective of the Hebrew and Greek, "eternal" as unending is a "possibility argument"; in fact from the perspective of the Old Testament, even the idea that there is any consciousness after physical death is a serious "possibility argument"! -- and this applied to the judgment:  while the righteous gain life "into the ages" with God, the unrighteous have just enough time to be appalled at their wrong lives before they're gone forever.

Jesus' use of Gehenna as a comparison sheds light on this:  one of the most horrendous things a Jew of the time could look forward to would be to die and have no proper burial; so the image of being cast onto the trash heap that never stops burning would have been horrible on its own, but the recognition that the trash tossed on the heap is burned up and gone would have had its own impact -- Gehenna wasn't a place where trash tossed in was burned but not consumed (odd how the imagery of Hell so closely matches a certain Old Testament occurrence), the trash was rather consumed according to how non-flammable it was.

So the view at the time of Jesus was that death meant (eventual) non-existence, and we have to look for reasons to think otherwise.

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

“Just exactly how to measure an "age" has never been entirely clear, even when defined as however long it takes in torment for a soul to let go of iniquity and then cease to exist, in terms of annihilation”

Or … defining the length of an “age” is superfluous; unnecessary to the intent of the Author – who has made no other mention of an ultimate “annihilation”.

Yet the fact is that "an age" was understood to be a limited, however extensive, period of time; that's shown by how many writers back then counted a thousand years as being an age.  The meaning of a word isn't what tradition has brought to us, it's what it meant to the people at the time it was used, and the sense in the time of Jesus generally had to do with however long it took something to be completed/finished.  It isn't "defining the length of an 'age'", it's recognizing what "an age" meant to the audience at the time.

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

 

“In the context of annihilationism as considered in the early church, "pay all that is due" would be tied to giving up iniquity -”

Where does the Bible teach that hell is about tormenting a soul into “giving up iniquity”?

 

"Until he paid the last."  That phrase that Jesus used indicates an ending of "payment".  The only question is whether once "the last" is "paid" there is a release from the "prison", or rather what kind of release there is:  into nothingness or into life.  The argument of the Fathers who held that it was into life was that anything less than everyone ultimately being saved diminished the glory of Christ; the annihilationists disagreed and said that if those not saved vanished into nothingness when the "last was paid" then Christ's glory wasn't diminished.

On 1/14/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tristen said:

“Though the "until he should pay" was more commonly taken to mean that whenever the torment drove the tormented soul to finally recognize it needs God then the torture would end and the soul would pass into heaven as the least of the realm”

We are now talking about a kind of Purgatory – a path to earning our own way into heaven through personal suffering - without Christ – independent of the need for a Savior???

"Earn"?  Not in the least.  When Paul says that some will be saved "as through fire", is he saying that those will be earning their salvation?  No!  He's saying that whatever wasn't suitable for heaven is painfully purged by God.

Besides which, Purgatory was never about "earning our own way into heaven through personal suffering", it was about the torment of having all sin and sinful desires burned out, removed in the way that a red-hot steel bar would be applied to wounds to seal and heal them.  It might be linked to what Paul says about us "filling up the sufferings of Christ" -- a phrase that has puzzled the church down through the centuries -- but that's just conjecture.