The Three Main Views of Hell

[Starise]

I admit I have waffled on this subject, mainly because when we are talking about people being toasted eternally I wanted to make sure. To me this is a BIG deal.

Let's face it, whether you believe hell is eternal forever punishment or not, hell makes a very effective religious control mechanism. I never liked the idea of using it this way because I don't think it entices unbelivers to look at Christ in the right way. Many churches are using hell as a bargaining chip which I think puts the cart somewhat before the horse.

To be fair, air breathers with barely a 70-80 year life expectancy on a good day should be coming to the realization that this will end. Sooner than many think it will. Age is yet another bad way to probably view this because this means 18 year olds can give it less weight. Not true. Plenty of 18 years olds dying. 

Motive is everything here. Ideally pastors are entrusted to present the full view of the bible from front to back.

Coming to Christ involves more than a simple nod that says , " I don't want to go to hell". A LOT more. Many denominations/religions today try to fill the gap between what a person wants to do to get by and those things they want to do they know God disapproves of. Ideally if they could do the things God calls sin, go somewhere once a week and 'repent'. Life is good, or so they think. They look at life like an appeasment process, God is happy, I am happy. I have just enough God to make things work, but not so much that I am one of those religious nut cases. Most of these people are unsaved.

When one of these people hears a hellfire and brimstone sermon, many of them think, " I had better do something" Then they see an invitation line. Off they go to get 'saved', but are they really sincere? Some will say yes, we scared the h*** out of them, but saved to what? They ran from but might not have run to.

So yes, hell is hot, you will burn there if unsaved, but if you follow Jesus you won't need to look at the alternative.

[Waggles]

50 minutes ago, Starise said:

but if you follow Jesus you won't need to look at the alternative.

Now that is waffle.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

When I came to the Lord the Holy Spirit immediately cleansed me from cigarettes, marijuana and alcohol. I became holy, sanctified and clean.

Yet I see millions of Christians that smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol. Is that following Jesus. Is that denying one's life? Is that putting to death the flesh?

1Cor 6:19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 
20  for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

[Starise]

1 minute ago, Waggles said:

Now that is waffle.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

When I came to the Lord the Holy Spirit immediately cleansed me from cigarettes, marijuana and alcohol. I became holy, sanctified and clean.

Yet I see millions of Christians that smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol. Is that following Jesus. Is that denying one's life? Is that putting to death the flesh?

1Cor 6:19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 
20  for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

Yes and I readily admit I waffled on hell because the very thought of people roasting forever is one of the most unpleasant thoughts anyone could have.

I can say with 90% certainty now that it is probably forever with high hopes the other 10% is actually right.  Most of my head says it's forever, but my heart runs the other way.

What does it mean to follow Jesus? It means to be willing to give up everything because we are bought with a price. This is why the road to heaven is narrow.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I admit I have waffled on this subject, mainly because when we are talking about people being toasted eternally I wanted to make sure. To me this is a BIG deal.

Let's face it, whether you believe hell is eternal forever punishment or not, hell makes a very effective religious control mechanism. I never liked the idea of using it this way because I don't think it entices unbelivers to look at Christ in the right way. Many churches are using hell as a bargaining chip which I think puts the cart somewhat before the horse.

To be fair, air breathers with barely a 70-80 year life expectancy on a good day should be coming to the realization that this will end. Sooner than many think it will. Age is yet another bad way to probably view this because this means 18 year olds can give it less weight. Not true. Plenty of 18 years olds dying. 

Motive is everything here. Ideally pastors are entrusted to present the full view of the bible from front to back.

Coming to Christ involves more than a simple nod that says , " I don't want to go to hell". A LOT more. Many denominations/religions today try to fill the gap between what a person wants to do to get by and those things they want to do they know God disapproves of. Ideally if they could do the things God calls sin, go somewhere once a week and 'repent'. Life is good, or so they think. They look at life like an appeasment process, God is happy, I am happy. I have just enough God to make things work, but not so much that I am one of those religious nut cases. Most of these people are unsaved.

When one of these people hears a hellfire and brimstone sermon, many of them think, " I had better do something" Then they see an invitation line. Off they go to get 'saved', but are they really sincere? Some will say yes, we scared the h*** out of them, but saved to what? They ran from but might not have run to.

So yes, hell is hot, you will burn there if unsaved, but if you follow Jesus you won't need to look at the alternative.

Point well taken!  It is a serious topic. As I think I said in the opening post, whatever it ("hell") is, it is definitely not pleasant and to be avoided at all costs. 

as you said, there's so "much more" to be gained in Christ and I too don't believe the gospel should be focused on that aspect, but rather on the love and grace coming to us in accepting Christ.  I'm not saying the negative side shouldn't be mentioned at all, and folks should be aware of the downside too of not accepting Christ.  I've read how Jonathan Edwards' preaching on "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" caused people to wail in fear and then come to Christ by the scores, so the Spirit can use that kind of speaking.  But as I've read the NT, I don't think I've seen that approach being used - right?

And as the OP I feel remise in that I haven't replied to a few posts (@Tristen - yer included here).  I was one who never questioned very much regarding the traditional view of eternal conscious torment, as that seemed like what was apparent in scripture.  But after diving into various books and other writings, as well as the original language meaning, etc., I saw that this was another one of those things that warrants the  traditional veneer being be scrapped off a little. However, each time I've gone to respond on this thread in more detail, I feel some resistance in me to do so - perhaps the Anointing is trying to tell me something here . . .

Edited January 12, 2023 by Vine Abider
typo & clarity

[Vine Abider]

9 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Now that is waffle.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

When I came to the Lord the Holy Spirit immediately cleansed me from cigarettes, marijuana and alcohol. I became holy, sanctified and clean.

Yet I see millions of Christians that smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol. Is that following Jesus. Is that denying one's life? Is that putting to death the flesh?

1Cor 6:19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 
20  for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

The Spirit needed to cleanse you of those specific things it sounds like.  (For me, the pleasant experience I got from smoking pot was removed in an instant.)  For others, the Spirit takes away other things as is needed.

When I was in my drug hay-day (1970s) I believe the Lord also miraculously kept me from using needles (my skin turned into impenetrable leather one time), because I'm sure that would have been a major ruination.

So I cannot tell why different ones do this or that.  When I start wondering about others too much, the words "What is that to you? As for you, follow me!" often come to me. (John 21:22)

[Starise]

10 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Point well taken!  It is a serious topic. As I think I said in the opening post, whatever it ("hell") is, it is definitely not pleasant and to be avoided at all costs. 

as you said, there's so "much more" to be gained in Christ and I too don't believe the gospel should be focused on that aspect, but rather on the love and grace coming to us in accepting Christ.  I'm not saying the negative side shouldn't be mentioned at all, and folks should be aware of the downside too of not accepting Christ.  I've read how Jonathan Edwards' preaching on "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" caused people to wail in fear and then come to Christ by the scores, so the Spirit can use that kind of speaking.  But as I've read the NT, I don't think I've seen that approach being used - right?

And as the OP I feel remise in that I haven't replied to a few post (@Tristen - yer included here).  I was one who never questioned very much regarding the traditional view of eternal conscious torment, as it that seemed what was apparent in scripture.  But after diving into various books and other writings, as well as the original language meaning, etc., I saw that this was another one of those things that warrants the veneer of tradition being be scrapped off a little. However, each time I've gone to respond on this thread in more detail, I feel some resistance in me to do so - perhaps the Anointing is trying to tell me something here . . .

I held back too because we have had similar discussions here before. While most will try to make this all look cut and dried, I'm still holding out. As someone who doesn't yet feel I have all the info needed to make my own decisions on this subject, I would rather say I am not sure than drive toward some unsure outcome.

I will say the argument is strong that it is eternal, but there are also other passages which 'appear' to look otherwise. I can only hope what 'appears' to be that way is, because the alternative is as bad as it ever gets.

I talked with a person who wants to go to hell. This person fights any efforts to try and talk to them about the outcome of going there, and for me it's a sad thing to see. For that person, any discussion on hell only makes them more determined to go the other way. I don't quite inderstand the logic. They apparently hate God to such a degree that hell ( in their mind) is preferable.

[Vine Abider]

1 minute ago, Starise said:

I held back too because we have had similar discussions here before. While most will try to make this all look cut and dried, I'm still holding out. As someone who doesn't yet feel I have all the info needed to make my own decisions on this subject, I would rather say I am not sure than drive toward some unsure outcome.

I will say the argument is strong that it is eternal, but there are also other passages which 'appear' to look otherwise. I can only hope what ;appears' to be that way is, because the alternative is as bas as it ever gets.

I talked with a person who wants to go to hell. This person fights any efforts to try and talk to them about the outcome of going there, and for me it's a sad thing to see. For that person, any discussion on hell only makes them more determined to go the other way. I don't quite inderstand the logic. They apparently hate God to such a degree that hell ( in their mind) is preferable.

Regarding your last paragraph about a person wanting to go to hell because they hate God - WOW!  In going through Revelation again here, it's been remarkable to see those that even after significant "prodding" they still hate God and want to fight him.  What is this than a full manifestation of their father, the devil who hates God until the end!?

And ditto on the first two paragraphs.  In looking at the passages that seem to point to annihilation rather than eternal torment, I then will read some verse that certainly looks like it's eternal . . . I keep thinking maybe only the hardest ones will wind up going into the lake of fire.

[Vine Abider]

@Tristen I (finally) went back and read some of those earlier posts.  Rather than starting with a ton of verses and the interpretations thereof, I thought to maybe address this first and see if that can lead into a fruitful discussion.

Is the human soul eternal?  The traditional view holds that the soul is immortal and that this is fully supported from scripture. It is a pretty prevalent view in Christendom and it's how I was brought up. But it is in Christ that we are given eternal life.  Prior to regeneration, the bible states we were dead.  Just dead. Not living at all - no response.  But in Christ we are made alive and given eternal life.

So if we take the stance that the soul is dead and doesn't have eternal life without Christ, then it's not a big stretch to say the dead soul would not consciously tormented forever (it would have to have been given life first). If we think the soul is immortal from our physical birth, then yes, it stands to reason that if it couldn't die, then eternal conscious torment (ECT) must likely be in store.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the idea of an immortal soul seemed to have come from the Greeks.  Then Augustine took this idea and incorporated it into Christian thought (he believed in ECT) , which influenced many downstream of him.

[Roymond]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

 

“These two words in 2 Thess 1:9 "everlasting destruction" are the Greek words "olethros" and "aionios". Aionios primarily means age-long, that is, something which is not brief or fleeting.  Olethros means ruin, doom, destruction, death.  Many theologists do not think this means eternal and conscious torment”

. . . .

Obviously, the original language is an important aspect of context – not to be ignored. And I could get on board with the ‘maybes’ if there wasn’t any other scriptural information on the subject. But I see hell described in scripture as “unquenchable/eternal/everlasting fire”, as “blackness of darkness forever”:

Revelation 20:10 - The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

"Forever and ever" is a poor translation, though; the Greek is "into the ages of ages".  In the early church both universalists and annihilationists took this to mean an extremely long time but finite; to the universalists it meant however long it took the specific soul to realize it needed God's goodness; to the annihilationists it meant however long it took a specific soul to let go of iniquity and just vanish.

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

“but rather that the soul is destroyed - brought to nothingness, and that it is the results that are eternal.  This seems to be the heart of annihilationistic thinking.”

To me, that reduces the clear emphasis on a “forever” punishment to a grammatical redundancy. ‘Gone’ is ‘gone’ – there is no reason to stress the “forever” (or “eternal”, or “everlasting”) nature of non-existence.

A "to the ages" punishment that results in annihilation would be what the "ages" description refers to, not the annihilation itself.  Just exactly how to measure an "age" has never been entirely clear, even when defined as however long it takes in torment for a soul to let go of iniquity and then cease to exist, in terms of annihilation.  Give how humans cling tightly to their errors and rebellions, that could be a very long time indeed, and in fact different for every soul.

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

I’m also not sure how that idea would conform to the concept of an “age-long” (“aionios”) punishment.

I would also wonder about who is doing all the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” if the souls have been “brought to nothingness”?

The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be occurring during whatever period it takes to reduce a soul to "nothingness".

On 1/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tristen said:

 

As an extra thought, the following parable verse have God delivering the “wicked” (in this case, the unforgiving) to torture until they can pay Him back what is owed.

Matthew 18:34-35 - And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

You and I both know that we can never repay God what is owed – which is why His Savior is our only Hope.

 

In the context of annihilationism as considered in the early church, "pay all that is due" would be tied to giving up iniquity -- however long that takes.  In the case of the damned, C. S. Lewis had helpful imagery:  surrendering iniquity essentially turns the soul to nothingness so only the iniquity remains, because iniquity was all that the soul of the wicked has -- and then God does away with the iniquity.

Though the "until he should pay" was more commonly taken to mean that whenever the torment drove the tormented soul to finally recognize it needs God then the torture would end and the soul would pass into heaven as the least of the realm.

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Roymond said:

he "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be occurring during whatever period it takes to reduce a soul to "nothingness".

A highly speculative thought.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth" - time as we experience it in our world and age will not exist in the new age to come - for in here all things are eternal.

Matt 8:11  I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 
12  while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

this will require consciousness in order to be of effect - annihilation will not produce weeping - eternal regret and sorrow. 

Matt 13:40  Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 
41  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 
42  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 
43  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 22:10  And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 
11  “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 
12  And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 
13  Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 
14  For many are called, but few are chosen.”

There is nothing in scripture that teaches fanciful ideas of purgatory - punishment for a set time with parole on offer - judgement is eternal.

Eternal for those who are worthy to receive mercy and eternal life and eternal for those who are judged evil and will receive eternal condemnation.

To produce a theology of purgatory and/or annihilation is to also challenge the doctrine of eternal life and reward. The same Greek wording is used for both.

Mark 10:29  Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 
30  who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

eternal - G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios

life - G2222 ζωή zōē

and in the age to come eternal life - so is this a limited time offer ??

Edited January 13, 2023 by Waggles