Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[Vine Abider]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:25 PM, AdHoc said:

Just think George - your forum might be the only one in the world addressing this. The message is simple and scriptural. What have you done with your resources as a Christian? Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 promise us a day of accountability.

I think what you are referring to here is the Bema, right . . . and that you think this forum is perhaps the only one discussing a day of accountability for Christians?   Is that really the case @George? 

I've really only spent time on two Christian forums, this one and another one that AdHoc knows about (the LCD forum), and both forums have had discussions around this topic.  On the other forum this has been discussed extensively, because the ones meeting in that particular group that the forum was about, were taught an unhealthy fear regarding the Bema, which was then used to control its members . . .

My perception, as I've talked with Christians from various groups and backgrounds, is  not many seem to know much about the Bema and accountability for works done as per 1 Corinthians 3.  If I had to guess, I'd say only about 10-20% of Christians are aware of this - is that any where close to an accurate figure?

[iamlamad]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:28 AM, Diaste said:

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

They ascend this far, anyway.

Then....

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason,

This group out of GT is standing about a throne where God sits. The Lamb, the elders and the four living creatures are there as well. 

So this isn't the throne in heaven and this isn't the resurrected saints from GT standing about the throne in the presence of God, the Lamb, the elders and the four living creatures?

It sure reads that way to me!

[AdHoc]

36 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I think what you are referring to here is the Bema, right . . . and that you think this forum is perhaps the only one discussing a day of accountability for Christians?   Is that really the case @George? 

I've really only spent time on two Christian forums, this one and another one that AdHoc knows about (the LCD forum), and both forums have had discussions around this topic.  On the other forum this has been discussed extensively, because the ones meeting in that particular group that the forum was about, were taught an unhealthy fear regarding the Bema, which was then used to control its members . . .

My perception, as I've talked with Christians from various groups and backgrounds, is  not many seem to know much about the Bema and accountability for works done as per 1 Corinthians 3.  If I had to guess, I'd say only about 10-20% of Christians are aware of this - is that any where close to an accurate figure?

I think the setting for my comment was something else. Not that you don't have a valid point. I showed that the context of 1st Thessalonians 4 13-18 was not actually the rapture but the belief of the saints in Thessaloniki that the dead saints would miss the rapture. The word "alive and REMAIN" had to be so if Paul was to be true to Matthew 24:38-51. Paul then suggests "comfort" - not because some will be alive and REMAIN, but because the dead will enjoy the same privileges as the living.

George's answer, whether he missed the point I was trying make, or understood the implication fully, addressed the fact that REMAINING was NO COMFORT - and very rightly so. It is no comfort to be left to face the Great Tribulation. But I used the discussion to suggest that George's Forum might be one of few, if any, that issue this warning. There are about four schools of thought on the Rapture, and even the worst has God protecting His people in the Great Tribulation - for which they are unable to bring one verse.

Let me be clear. Scripture says that the Great Tribulation has its effect throughout the WHOLE EARTH. The there no corner untouched by it. The multitude who go through it in Revelation 7 need much comfort from the Lord. Scripture gives only one way of avoiding the Great Tribulation (if you are living a this time). That is BE ABSENT FROM THE EARTH.

Being ABSENT from the earth is shown in THREE different scriptures:
- Luke 21:36. There you must be "counted worthy" to ESCAPE and "STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN, Who will still be in the clouds at that time
- Revelation 3:10. There you will be KEPT FROM (not "IN") THE HOUR of Tribulation. That is, you will MISS the TIME during which it takes place
- Revelation 14:1-5. You must be "REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH". The whole of Chapter 14 deals with HARVESTS; (i) Those standing before the throne are "FIRSTFRUITS" - the first part of a harvest. The scene is heaven like Chapter 4 with the 24 Elders, etc. Then comes the fate of those MARTYRED during the Great Tribulation. They belong to the "harvest of the earth" and are harvested by Jesus (see the shout of the Lord of 1st Thess.4). And then angels harvest the "harvest of the clusters of the vine of the earth" by angels, which ends at Armageddon.

To sum up; The Great Tribulation is God's wrath (ten times said in the Book of  Revelation). We are not appointed to this wrath (1st Thess.5:9). A man can only avoid the Great Tribulation by being OFF the earth - or dead in Hades. If one is LEFT BEHIND THERE IS NO ESCAPE. You will be badly scarred by the Great Tribulation. If you are a Christian and go through the Great Tribulation, this is what will happen to you;

- You will be far from the throne and thus the presence of the Lord (v.15)
- God will not be dwelling among you (v.15)
- You will hunger (v.16)
- You will thirst (v.16)
- The sun will burn you (v.16)
- Other sources of heat will get you (v.16)
- These sufferings will be BOTH physical and spiritual (v.17)
- You will weep continuously for 3½ years (v.17)

Revelation 7:15–17 either says these plainly or IMPLIES THEM!
"15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

[Michael37]

14 minutes ago, anetazo said:

Second thessalonians chapter 2,  the son of perdition goes into temple of God and claims to be God. This is satan as antichrist,  near future.

Hi anetazo,

Welcome to one of Worthy's frequently discussed topics. 

Satan is not either of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13 and elsewhere nor the son of perdition/lawless one mentioned in 2 Thessalonians.

After the first beast and the false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire Satan is chained and cast into the abyss for 1000 years, then released to face his final defeat by God at which juncture he is also cast into the Lake of Fire. 

Rev 19:20  Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:1-3  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  (2)  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;  (3)  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20:10  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Blessings From Michael37

[Montana Marv]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:31 AM, anetazo said:

Those who have mark of beast will worship antichrist

It is the other way around.  Those who worship the antichrist will be given the mark.

On 2/22/2023 at 12:31 AM, anetazo said:

the son of perdition goes into temple of God and claims to be God. This is satan as antichrist,

No, Satan is Satan, and the beast of Rev 13:3,4 is the antichrist.  For the beast and the False Prophet are the first ones into the Lake of Fire.  After the 1000 years Satan goes into the Lake of Fire.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

It is the other way around.  Those who worship the antichrist will be given the mark.

Those who worship the image and take the mark will be "Deceived" into doing so

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Edited February 24, 2023 by truth7t7

[Montana Marv]

17 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Those who worship the image and take the mark will be "Deceived" into doing so

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It is good you got to Rev  19:20.  Now read the next chapter.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Markie51]

     The prospective body called as Jesus’ “bride” are promised to him in a symbolic marriage, and they must be resurrected to the heavens in order to take part in “the marriage of the Lamb.” (2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7, 8; 21:9)  The apostle Paul looked forward to receiving his heavenly resurrection. (2 Timothy 4:8)  When Christ’s “presence” takes place, there are some of his spiritual brothers yet alive on earth, “invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage,” but those of their number who have died are given first attention by a resurrection. (Revelation 19:9)  This is explained at 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16.

     Thus, at the time that they finish their earthly course faithfully in death, the remaining ones who have the invitation to “the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage” are immediately resurrected to join their fellow members of the bride class in heaven.  They do not “fall asleep in death” in the sense of waiting in a long sleep, as did the apostles but, on dying, are “changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52)  Evidently, though, “the marriage of the Lamb” does not take place until after judgment has been executed upon “Babylon the Great.” (Revelation 18)  After describing the destruction of this “great harlot,” and after all of the 144,000 have been finally approved and “sealed” as faithful ones and have been resurrected to the heavens, the marriage can proceed.-Revelation 19:7

[Jaydub]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:52 PM, AdHoc said:

There are about four schools of thought on the Rapture, and even the worst has God protecting His people in the Great Tribulation - for which they are unable to bring one verse.

Rev 7:3

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

what about the 14400 are they effected by Gods wrath?

These servants of God are protected because they are sealed by God,. We are also servants of God with his seal the Holy Spirit and will not face Gods wrath

On 2/10/2023 at 2:52 PM, AdHoc said:

to sum up; The Great Tribulation is God's wrath (ten times said in the Book of  Revelation). We are not appointed to this wrath (1st Thess.5:9). A man can only avoid the Great Tribulation by being OFF the earth - or dead in Hades. If one is LEFT BEHIND THERE IS NO ESCAPE. You will be badly scarred by the Great Tribulation. If you are a Christian and go through the Great Tribulation, this is what will happen to you;

- You will be far from the throne and thus the presence of the Lord (v.15)
- God will not be dwelling among you (v.15)
- You will hunger (v.16)
- You will thirst (v.16)
- The sun will burn you (v.16)
- Other sources of heat will get you (v.16)
- These sufferings will be BOTH physical and spiritual (v.17)
- You will weep continuously for 3½ years (v.17)

Revelation 7:15–17 either says these plainly or IMPLIES THEM!
"15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

Your missing the point of the text. Its not speaking of Gods wrath, but of his love and mercy, When we enter into heaven, the troubles of this world will no longer effect us. No longer will people hunger. No longer will people thirst, no longer will we be working all day in the hot sun, and all our sorrows will be wipe away, all our tears will be wipe away. Verse 15 is not speaking of wrath 

[Dennis1209]

On 2/10/2023 at 4:52 PM, AdHoc said:

I think the setting for my comment was something else. Not that you don't have a valid point. I showed that the context of 1st Thessalonians 4 13-18 was not actually the rapture but the belief of the saints in Thessaloniki that the dead saints would miss the rapture. The word "alive and REMAIN" had to be so if Paul was to be true to Matthew 24:38-51. Paul then suggests "comfort" - not because some will be alive and REMAIN, but because the dead will enjoy the same privileges as the living.

George's answer, whether he missed the point I was trying make, or understood the implication fully, addressed the fact that REMAINING was NO COMFORT - and very rightly so. It is no comfort to be left to face the Great Tribulation. But I used the discussion to suggest that George's Forum might be one of few, if any, that issue this warning. There are about four schools of thought on the Rapture, and even the worst has God protecting His people in the Great Tribulation - for which they are unable to bring one verse.

Let me be clear. Scripture says that the Great Tribulation has its effect throughout the WHOLE EARTH. The there no corner untouched by it. The multitude who go through it in Revelation 7 need much comfort from the Lord. Scripture gives only one way of avoiding the Great Tribulation (if you are living a this time). That is BE ABSENT FROM THE EARTH.

Being ABSENT from the earth is shown in THREE different scriptures:
- Luke 21:36. There you must be "counted worthy" to ESCAPE and "STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN, Who will still be in the clouds at that time
- Revelation 3:10. There you will be KEPT FROM (not "IN") THE HOUR of Tribulation. That is, you will MISS the TIME during which it takes place
- Revelation 14:1-5. You must be "REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH". The whole of Chapter 14 deals with HARVESTS; (i) Those standing before the throne are "FIRSTFRUITS" - the first part of a harvest. The scene is heaven like Chapter 4 with the 24 Elders, etc. Then comes the fate of those MARTYRED during the Great Tribulation. They belong to the "harvest of the earth" and are harvested by Jesus (see the shout of the Lord of 1st Thess.4). And then angels harvest the "harvest of the clusters of the vine of the earth" by angels, which ends at Armageddon.

To sum up; The Great Tribulation is God's wrath (ten times said in the Book of  Revelation). We are not appointed to this wrath (1st Thess.5:9). A man can only avoid the Great Tribulation by being OFF the earth - or dead in Hades. If one is LEFT BEHIND THERE IS NO ESCAPE. You will be badly scarred by the Great Tribulation. If you are a Christian and go through the Great Tribulation, this is what will happen to you;

- You will be far from the throne and thus the presence of the Lord (v.15)
- God will not be dwelling among you (v.15)
- You will hunger (v.16)
- You will thirst (v.16)
- The sun will burn you (v.16)
- Other sources of heat will get you (v.16)
- These sufferings will be BOTH physical and spiritual (v.17)
- You will weep continuously for 3½ years (v.17)

Revelation 7:15–17 either says these plainly or IMPLIES THEM!
"15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

Well said. I am a little late to the discussion. To clarify my thoughts and understanding, would the following be accurate?

Daniel's 70^th week is the entire seven-year Tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble is the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation, a.k.a. the Great Tribulation. For the first 3 ½ years, Israel is living in relative peace under the Antichrist covenant while most of the world is in turmoil and war. There are no gaps in time in these seven years. At the midpoint with the A.O.D., the Great Tribulation begins, the final 3 ½ years, the time of Jacob's trouble.

Revelation chapter six, verse one, the first seal, is the introduction to the Antichrist. Taking peace from the earth is a global war. The rest of the seal judgments culminate from worldwide death and war. As verse 9 describes, the first batch of Tribulation saints is under the alter, questioning how much longer. They must wait until the rest of their tribulation brethren are slain for the word of God.

As we discussed a while back, it perplexes me if these seal judgments are inside the seven-year Tribulation. These martyred Tribulation saints should know where they were in the seven years—needing not to ask how much longer and to rest. Perhaps they are the martyred saints of all time, but the context of Revelation six limits the time to the seal judgments and beyond.

In my view, the official beginning of the Tribulation starts when the Antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27). It begins as described with the Lamb opening up the seal judgments in Revelation chapter six. If this is not God's wrath being poured out, I do not know what is. But it is going to get worse, much worse (Rev. 14:10).

Christians are appointed Tribulation in this world, as those under Ceasars Rome and Catholic Rome with the inquisitions and crusades.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have Tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

It is interesting to witness the times in which we are living. Our government officials stating conservatives and Christians are a basket of deplorables, intolerant, non-inclusive, and domestic terrorists. Woke groups and alphabet gender identities at war with God and Christians. Both groups claim we are prejudiced, non-inclusive, bigots, and the cause of global problems.