Will the Day of the Lord come as a thief, or will there be signs first?

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Keep in mind, there will be TWO MORE comings of the Lord.

Please tell me more.

 

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So all those PEOPLE in heaven that John wrote about in Rev. 19 will stay in heaven while Jesus and the angels come to earth? 

Zechariah 14:5  Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Jude 1:14  Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Hi iamlamad,

Glad you brought those scriptures to our attention. Both of those have been translated WRONG. The correct word is `holy ones.` And they can be angels or saints. Thus, we need more scriptures for confirmation. And so we see that the Lord Himself tells us that His angels are coming with Him.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's look:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 

This is another view of the same coming: to Armageddon:
Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

I agree, this is NOT the start of the Day of the Lord. (That will start before the tribulation of those days.)

It cannot be the rapture, for Jesus never mentioned that coming, except remotely in John 14. It cannot be the rapture for it is 7 years too late to be the rapture. It cannot be the rapture for at the rapture Jesus does not touch down.

In context then, this is Jesus' coming to Armageddon. It is after the tribulation of those days. The tribulation comes with God's wrath. The church will not be subject to God's wrath. 

I understand what your saying. I noticed you skipped verses 31-35 in your quote.  I believe those verses show a change of subject. He was still referring to the end days of course, but then he goes into a lecture about how surprised everyone will be. He even says people will be getting married. I'm 100% sure that at the end of the tribulation when 90% of the human race will have died in the most horrific time period in human history,  people will NOT be getting married. This indicates a time BEFORE the tribulation begins. Many also believe ( as I do ) that Revelation 3:10 is the most specific rapture passage in the Bible. I can elaborate on that if you need me to. 

[Diaste]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Both Paul and Peter tell us the Day will come as a thief, so with no warning.

No.

The entire thought is:

 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

So no...none of the true brethren, the brothers of the faith, those who are the sons of the light, will be surprised. That day WILL NOT overtake us as a thief.

It's just nonsense to keep bringing this up when it's false, a partial thought, and a device to maintain a doctrine. 

There is no contradiction. The only apparent contradiction is in the mind of those desperately clinging to a false doctrine that demands a false condition before the harpazo. There will be signs; one is no pretrib rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

No.

The entire thought is:

 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

So no...none of the true brethren, the brothers of the faith, those who are the sons of the light, will be surprised. That day WILL NOT overtake us as a thief.

It's just nonsense to keep bringing this up when it's false, a partial thought, and a device to maintain a doctrine. 

There is no contradiction. The only apparent contradiction is in the mind of those desperately clinging to a false doctrine that demands a false condition before the harpazo. There will be signs; one is no pretrib rapture.

 

The reason the Day won't overtake us as a thief is that we are WATCHING for His coming, expecting it every day. But even this does not explain why Joel tells us there will be signs before the day, but Paul  does not mention any signs. In fact, considering what Joel wrote, and what John wrote at the 6th seal, it seems the people recognize (after seeing the signs) that the DAY has come.

One explanation could be that most of the world knows nothing about what Joel wrote—that the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood before the Day begins.

By the way, I am not desperately trying to cling to a false doctrine.

Paul tells us the rapture will come before wrath.
John tells us that wrath will begin before the 7oth week.

Why do you doubt what is written?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I understand what your saying. I noticed you skipped verses 31-35 in your quote.  I believe those verses show a change of subject. He was still referring to the end days of course, but then he goes into a lecture about how surprised everyone will be. He even says people will be getting married. I'm 100% sure that at the end of the tribulation when 90% of the human race will have died in the most horrific time period in human history,  people will NOT be getting married. This indicates a time BEFORE the tribulation begins. Many also believe ( as I do ) that Revelation 3:10 is the most specific rapture passage in the Bible. I can elaborate on that if you need me to. 

I don't see a change of subject. It does seem strange that people would be being married after the entire 70th week has finished. But then, there is another hint that they might be carrying on life as much as possible. When the Two Witnesses are killed, people send gifts to each other.

Why would you think Jesus would be talking about the end, they suddenly begin talking about the days before the Week begins, then switch back to the end? Are you choosing human reasoning over what is written? (Just asking.)

I don't usually use Rev. 3:10 because people can't agree on it. Anyway, it is not needed to prove a pre-trib rapture.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Glad you brought those scriptures to our attention. Both of those have been translated WRONG. The correct word is `holy ones.` And they can be angels or saints. Thus, we need more scriptures for confirmation. And so we see that the Lord Himself tells us that His angels are coming with Him.

"Holy Ones" fits the saints well. Thank you.

You did not answer my question.

Revelation 19, the first few verses shows us a HUGE amount of saints in heaven, there for the marriage and supper. Do you imagine Jesus will leave them in heaven when He descends? After all, He has said He will never leave us.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

Please tell me more.

It seems very clear to me that Paul gives us TIMING for the rapture: just before the start of God's wrath.

In Revelation wrath begins at the 6th seal. Therefore, according to Paul, the rapture would come just before the 6th seal.

This is confirmed when John saw the just-raptured church in heaven shortly thereafter.

There is another confirmation: the 5th seal martyrs of the church age. They were told that judgment would not begin until the final martyr was killed as they all were killed - as church age martyrs.

What would cause a certain martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the end of the church age. The church age will end at the pretrib rapture, the final martyr will be killed and then judgment can begin. The Next thing John wrote was the 6th seal start of judgment.

Revelation 19 and Matthew 24 give us a clear picture of His coming after the tribulation of those days.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

At the sixth seal people are hiding from the FACE of Him who sits on the throne! This happens when the sky is departed. Rev 6:17-  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

Zep 1:14- The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep 1:15- That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness

 

Jude 1:6- And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their... own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

Rev 16:14- For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Can anyone on earth SEE (with their two beady eyes) God seated on His throne? I have never seen it, nor has anyone I know seen it.

Perhaps they WILL see it when the sky is rolled up. Your guess is as good as mine. Or, perhaps they IMAGINE His angry face.

There is the official titled "Day of the Lord" that will begin at the 6th seal. There is also the specific Day Jesus returns to Armageddon. People may title that day too.

I believe the "great day of God Almighty" might be that day when Christ returns. But it is INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

Oh, there is also a "day of Christ." Some people think that is the day of the rapture. I think it is another term for the Day of the Lord.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't see a change of subject. It does seem strange that people would be being married after the entire 70th week has finished. But then, there is another hint that they might be carrying on life as much as possible. When the Two Witnesses are killed, people send gifts to each other.

Why would you think Jesus would be talking about the end, they suddenly begin talking about the days before the Week begins, then switch back to the end? Are you choosing human reasoning over what is written? (Just asking.)

I don't usually use Rev. 3:10 because people can't agree on it. Anyway, it is not needed to prove a pre-trib rapture.

Actually it's not uncommon for multiple prophecies to be spoken of in the same text.  There are many instances ( especially in Isaiah ) where the 1st and 2nd comings of Jesus are mentioned together. It's normal for a passage to be mentioning more than 1 prophecy at a time. That's why prophetic passages can be hard to understand. I'm certain people won't be celebrating at the end of the tribulation ( except Christians who know Jesus is about to appear ). The celebration of the deaths of the 2 witnesses is simply a worldwide holiday celebrated by the unbelievers under the power of the beast. Revelation 3:10 is a clear Pre-Trib prophecy. It can't be understood any other way without twisting the meaning or reading between lines that aren't there. As far as human reasoning,  I believe ALL interpretation has an element of Human Reasoning to it. I've heard many blasphemous things from people who claimed their interpretation was from the Holy Spirit. So I take other people's supposed interpretation with a grain of salt. I pray and study and ask Jesus for guidance and then when I feel I have the correct interpretation,  I go with it.  But I can always be wrong,  as any of us can. We must always be willing to be corrected when error is shown and to be humble when teaching in case we are in error.