God's Divine Protection Of The Church During The Tribulation

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

Which church ??

Clue: Revelation 13:7 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

That is the $40,000.00 question; who are the two witnesses? Frankly, I do not know, only how the Bible describes them and some supporting scripture.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Enoch pleased God, does Jesus’s bride please Him, not appointed to God’s wrath (a.k.a. the Tribulation). Enoch was taken from, Noah was lifted above and taken through.

On the surface, Hebrews would suggest Enoch, Elijah, and Enoch did not taste death, as we all know. Not long ago, I proposed a biblical case where Elijah was possibly transported to another location, much like Phillip was, Elijah’s retirement, so to speak. Unless the list of the kings of Israel and Judah are not in chronological order, which is a possibility.

It is rightly stated that a witness must have a first-hand account of being somewhere and observing, recording, and testifying to events. Looking at the central figure and what the Book of Revelation is all about, the revelation of Jesus Christ. Who were the “two men” at Jesus’s sepulcher, and the men at Jesus’s ascension? What were Moses and Elijah discussing just before Jesus’s crucifixion? Most likely Jesus’s death, burial, and resurrection, I assume.

The book of Revelation chapter four no longer mentions the church but focuses solely on Israel. At this point, Israel is still in denial and rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. A remnant of one-third of Israel will be saved.

In the time of Moses, Elijah, and Enoch, the Gospel, Rapture, and Resurrection were still a mystery. The two Witnesses and the flying angel preach the Kingdom of God, not the Gospel of grace. The age of grace, and the church age has ended. 

There are many similarities between the ten plagues of Exodus and the pouring out of God’s wrath. Many of those plagues correlate to what Moses and Elijah brought on by the power of God when on earth.

Thus far, I firmly conclude I am not dogmatic one way or the other. 😊

I have even heard one witness represents the church age, the other OT times.

You are correct. The Bible does not mention them by name. We are bound then to avoid being dogmatic. It is more of a case of detective work. They must be Witnesses - of what? I judge that they warn of terrible judgment. Jerusalem has become the citadel of Gentile power, and Satan's religion. Jesus is not only murdered there, but now an Imposter sits in God's room - embraced by Israel. The "Trouble" promised by God is to be like no other in the history of the world. Noah's deluge will pale against "Jacob's Trouble". The three and a half years of Ahab's drought are nothing. Fiery rain of molten brimstone on Sodom, which Lot is not permitted to look back upon, is insignificant compared to Revelation 9:18. Here, the brimstone kills a THIRD of men!

God will choose His Witnesses carefully. Their testimony is so frightening and accurate that men will try to kill them for three and a half years. The best assassins the Beast can find will meet that same fire maybe weekly, maybe daily for three and a half years - 42 months - 1260 days.

If I were a detective I would say that there are few men who (i) have seen this before, (ii) have seen men descend into such moral low (Enoch witnessed angels tampering with the seed of the woman), (iii) witnessed the end looming, and (iv) above all - having LIVED to tell of it. Hebrews 9:27 is chiseled in granite. Men have no reason to overthrow it. It stands. Moses cannot die twice, so he is excluded. The only one who witnessed impending doom upon all mankind is Enoch. And the only man living to see God judge Israel for 3½ ad live, is Elijah.

On the matter of the Church, I agree. In Matthew 24 one is left and one is "taken as a companion" (Paralambano - Gk.). The Lord Himself say that in this way the "House" is broken up. "Ekklesia" means, "the GATHERING of the called-out ones". But now a percentage of that GATHERING is no longer gathering TOGETHER. W cannot, in any honesty, call it "the Ekklesia". It is never mentioned again. The Overcomers are not only "redeemed from among men" but are "redeemed from the earth". The House of God is broken and will only be united again as the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

Again, we agree. The angel of "mid-heaven" may not preach the gospel of grace. Only men may. Demons are forbidden too. But the Church is divided. The diligent are in the sky, the slothful are running for the wilderness. The Jews hate Jesus and the Nations are indifferent. The gospel is OVER. The slothful did not exercise their talent then. What will make them use it now? Nothing! Thus, the Seals are opened and the Tribulation, which is RETRIBUTION, starts.

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I have agreed to none of your pre-trib folly,a teaching found no place in scripture 

The Church on earth will be kept from the hour of earths temptation, just as the Hebrews were spared from death at the passover in Egypt, as they entered their dwellings and shut the door as death passed over them, just as Isaiah 26:20-21 clearly teaches below

Revelation 3:10KJV

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

I suggest that you read the grammar.
"BECAUSE" makes it conditional. The DID something and God's reaction is to spare them. That implies that some are NOT kept FROM
"Keep thee FROM". It is NOT, "Keep thee IN". One demands that they be REMOVED, the other that some force preserves them while they suffer
"the HOUR of Temptation". They are not kept in a PLACE of safety. they are NOT PRESENT for the TIME of trial
"ALL the WORLD". There is no place on earth where the trial is missing. That means the "KEPT" must be missing from "ALL the world"
"to try them that DWELL ON EARTH". If you are on earth you will be tried. The whole of man kind who is on earth are tried. Those who are "KEPT" for the "TIME" of "TRIAL" cannot be on earth.

I'm sure you don't mean to, but if you abide by your earlier thesis, you make scripture to lie. Your thesis goes something like this.

"IRRESPECTIVE OF KEEPING MY WORD, I MAKE NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE WHO DIDN'T KEEP MY WORD. FURTHERMORE, UNLIKE LOT AND NOAH YOU WILL FEEL THE TRIAL TO THE FULLEST BUT I WILL KEEP YOU IN IT. I'M SORRY, THE TRAIL COVERS THE WHOLE EARTH AND THERE IS NO BIT OF EARTH TO FIND RESPITE. YOU UNFORTUNATELY WILL JOIN THOSE WHO DWELL ON EARTH.

One other point. The Christian who stands for the truth is bound to be derided. So I have no complaint. But in every posting of yours there are some harsh words and words of derision. I don't condemn them because I believe in energetic debate, but on another thread about Zionists, you have gone to lengths to show Christian Zionists to lack love. Are you not afraid that that title will land on you? Our Lord was known for His "gracious words". Through a reliable source I found out that up to eighty guests are reading the Forum at any one time. Let's decide now what manner of message we Christians want to send. A man of your intelligence and eloquence can win an argument without acid in it - IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

They are not kept in a PLACE of safety.

"We Disagree", The Lord Will Protect The Church On Earth During The Hour Of Earth's Temptation, Just As The Hebrews Were Protected In The Egyptian Passover

Jesus Is The Lord 

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Clue: Revelation 13:7 

The "Saints" seen in Revelation 13:7 represents the (Two Witbesses) and not the church on earth as you suggest

Jesus Is The Lord

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It stands. Moses cannot die twice, so he is excluded. The only one who witnessed impending doom upon all mankind is Enoch. And the only man living to see God judge Israel for 3½ ad live, is Elijah.

Admittedly, I have more questions than answers. You raise some interesting points and I am inclined to agree. As far as Moses not having to die twice, my way of thinking is questionable. As I implied earlier, my best guess of the Two Witnesses might be Moses and Elijah—based only on my interpretations of scripture. My second guess would be Enoch and Elijah, again based on what I read in scripture.

Are there any plain biblical exceptions to the following?

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Did the author of Hebrews intentionally leave out the word “all,” or is there an exception? Is the author of Hebrews implying Enoch will never taste physical death or is his physical death delayed to fulfill a purpose of God?

Dying twice, NOT once: Certainly, one or both Two Witnesses will have to taste physical death twice if they lived before. Those that Jesus and the apostles raised from the dead had to die TWICE; there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Is this another “exception” to Hebrews 9:27? Albeit we are not privy to how much longer they lived or that they died a second time.

What about Noah, born roughly 70 years after Enoch was taken? For 600 years, Noah also witnessed everything occurring in the pre-deluge world.

Too long to discuss right now, but as I know you are aware, John the Baptist was slated to be an Elijah.

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The "Saints" seen in Revelation 13:7 represents the (Two Witbesses) and not the church on earth as you suggest

Jesus Is The Lord

In your opinion.

[truth7t7]

24 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Admittedly, I have more questions than answers. You raise some interesting points and I am inclined to agree. As far as Moses not having to die twice, my way of thinking is questionable. As I implied earlier, my best guess of the Two Witnesses might be Moses and Elijah—based only on my interpretations of scripture. My second guess would be Enoch and Elijah, again based on what I read in scripture.

Are there any plain biblical exceptions to the following?

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Did the author of Hebrews intentionally leave out the word “all,” or is there an exception? Is the author of Hebrews implying Enoch will never taste physical death or is his physical death delayed to fulfill a purpose of God?

Dying twice, NOT once: Certainly, one or both Two Witnesses will have to taste physical death twice if they lived before. Those that Jesus and the apostles raised from the dead had to die TWICE; there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Is this another “exception” to Hebrews 9:27? Albeit we are not privy to how much longer they lived or that they died a second time.

What about Noah, born roughly 70 years after Enoch was taken? For 600 years, Noah also witnessed everything occurring in the pre-deluge world.

Too long to discuss right now, but as I know you are aware, John the Baptist was slated to be an Elijah.

Two Witnesses, Enoch/Elijah who never experienced a physical death, it's appointed unto man once to die

[truth7t7]

11 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

In your opinion.

Not opinion but biblical fact, the saints seen below are the two witnesses being overcome and killed

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[Michael37]

4 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Not opinion but biblical fact, the saints seen below are the two witnesses being overcome and killed

Revelation 11:7KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Those cross-references and their contexts don't settle the matter in favour of the saints only being the two witnesses and only them.

Look at who else the beast puts to death:

Rev 20:4
(4)  Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.