TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted February 2, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,049 Content Per Day: 1.61 Reputation: 597 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2023 17 hours ago, Biblican said: Yes. It's another level of hell based and it is not unscriptural based on Rev. 20:13. The dead are extracted from two locations hell and the sea, which is symbolic for the world. A ghost is simply a soul that has been released from the body. I think the fact that it is absolutely forbidden for the living to try to talk to the dead proves that the dead do not become ghosts. I don't think that kind of communication is even possible. I've never seen a legitimate example of it. What I have seen, is demons who impersonate the dead ( since demons know every part of our lives, is easy to impersonate ) and pretend very convincingly that they are a dead relative. Hell being in a different dimension ( also Heaven ) actually makes sense. That's why we can never reach these places with human means in a lifetime, yet at death can go there pretty much instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steward George Posted February 2, 2023 Group: Steward Followers: 110 Topic Count: 10,465 Topics Per Day: 1.25 Content Count: 27,786 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 15,483 Days Won: 129 Joined: 06/30/2001 Status: Online Birthday: 09/21/1971 Steward Share Posted February 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Slibhin said: Satan is not a good guy, he is the accuser. However we believe he is still an angel with a designed purpose. He appears twice in the Tanakh, Zechariah and Job. You have the word 'satan' and the word 'ha-satan' ... so when she says, it's only appeared twice, it's the definitive use of the word, 'Ha-Satan". However, the word, "Satan" is used quiet a bit in the Old Testament. https://worthy.bible/online-bible-study/strongs/h7854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
com7fy8 Posted February 2, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 873 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 520 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said: What I have seen, is demons who impersonate the dead ( since demons know every part of our lives, is easy to impersonate ) and pretend very convincingly that they are a dead relative. And I can see how a demon could share its personality and ways with a sinner, destroy the human in death, and then go on to another human later and give that next victim ways and even memories which the demon had already shared with a former and now dead person. And fool people into supposing the present person must be a reincarnation of the earlier one, when in fact only the demon has come back in a different person. It could be like the demon is a hard drive carrying things of a destroyed human on to a newer human. So, I would go farther than to say the demon is imitating some dead relative or other passed person. The demon could have helped to determine the dead human's personality and ways; and so then later that demon could show its own personality and trick people into supposing it is someone who is gone. Edited February 2, 2023 by com7fy8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted February 2, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,664 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,088 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted February 2, 2023 9 hours ago, Slibhin said: Lucifer, the devil and so on do not exist in Judaism because they are not supported in any of the Tankah, Talmud or the Midrash. Satan is not a good guy, he is the accuser. However we believe he is still an angel with a designed purpose. He appears twice in the Tanakh, Zechariah and Job. In both cases he was acting as a prosecutor and accuser. You will notice in Job especially that Satan could not do anything without Hashem's permission, because he is subject to the will of G-d just like any other created being. The reason Jews don't believe in Lucifer/The Devil is because, aside from not seeing it supported in the Tanakh, we do not believe angels have free will. Since they lack the free agency required to "rebel", Satan cannot have done so. The reason we don't believe they have free will is because we never once see an angel doing ANYTHING other then exactly as G-d instructs them. Hi , Your presentation leaves me a bit confused as to Lucifer, Devil, Satan. As to having freewill, I think you will find a great divide in understanding amongst Christians there as well. While Satan was banished by God from Heaven(s) [Ezekiel 28] to roam the earth ( As I understand it) Satan was able to be present amongst the angels when they appeared before God. [Job 1] Is it not at such an occasion that God challenged Satan with his "Have you considered my servant Job?" Satan did act as the accuser that he is as it is reported within Job. It seems to me Satan is real, a real personage created by God, yes as a treasured angel; but one that evidently by his own volition exercised freewill in rebellion against God's will. So is Satan real, not simply an expression of evil, much as the Holy Spirit is real and not just an expression of God's will? I see it as being quite real in both cases. And no I do not accept that a ghost moved a vase, in New England nor elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted February 2, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,049 Content Per Day: 1.61 Reputation: 597 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2023 5 hours ago, com7fy8 said: And I can see how a demon could share its personality and ways with a sinner, destroy the human in death, and then go on to another human later and give that next victim ways and even memories which the demon had already shared with a former and now dead person. And fool people into supposing the present person must be a reincarnation of the earlier one, when in fact only the demon has come back in a different person. It could be like the demon is a hard drive carrying things of a destroyed human on to a newer human. So, I would go farther than to say the demon is imitating some dead relative or other passed person. The demon could have helped to determine the dead human's personality and ways; and so then later that demon could show its own personality and trick people into supposing it is someone who is gone. Wow. I never actually gave it that much thought, but what you have stated makes perfect sense. That's the best explanation for supposed reincarnation experiences that I've ever heard. Thanks for the wisdom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted February 2, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,664 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,088 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted February 2, 2023 3 hours ago, Slibhin said: Ezekiel 28 is about the King of Tyre, not Satan. I am drawing a distinction because while Satan (or Ha-Satan) does appear in the Tanakh, titles like Lucifer, the Devil etc... do not. The reason I separate the two is because the Christian Devil and Satan in Judaism are very different. I was merely trying to correct a statement made about Jewish beliefs. We do not believe in fallen angels or "rebellion" because we don't believe they are capable. Thank you for sharing! Perhaps this might be the subject of a separate thread(?), in order to avoid hijacking this thread on moving vases. I have interest in it and will like to pursue it; HOWEVER I am at a bit of a temporary disadvantage as I am undergoing more vision changes than I ever expected to face. Mostly I think it all will be minor in the longer run, yet it is disrupting right now making reading for serious comprehension a very slow go. Do you have interest in starting out? If so please go ahead. If not I guess I will, but it might be a few days before I can manage putting together a coherent opening to the subject, one with references, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted February 3, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,245 Content Per Day: 7.09 Reputation: 13,259 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2023 (edited) I'm in agreement with @Slibhin regarding Satan, who is the accuser. I'm not Jewish so clearly, I don't agree regarding everything; for example, I don't agree that the sons of God lack voilition of their own. We don't lack volition either, and we were created lower than them. However, all things serve the Lord (Psalm 119). I both believe and am convinced of that truth, knowing that even the schemes of the wicked serve His purpose for He thwarts them all (example, Psalm 21). This includes Satan and the wicked princes. We see that Satan's role is the accuser, the adversary, and also the deceiver. As difficult as it may be for some to grasp, the book of Job shows us how Satan petitioned the Lord regarding His servant Job, and that the Lord granted Satan's petition. The Lord forbid Satan from doing certain things to Job, and it's clear that Satan abided by the Lord's judgment. Why? Because all things serve the Lord. There are matters which the Lord permits, and men cannot fathom it; there are times when the Lord is silent, and no one comprehends it. Indeed, as the Law and the Prophets declare so all will know, there is no one like the Most High. No one counsels the Almighty! If He doesn't reveal a matter then it remains hidden from us. For my brothers and sisters who wonder (or question) about Satan serving the Lord, and how audacious this might seem, then look no further than the book of Revelation where Satan was freed to deceive the nations. Who imprisoned Satan the deceiver and just as importantly, who freed him? Was it an accident? Did he escape? Or, was the deceiver freed according to the will and purpose of the Lord? Edited February 3, 2023 by Marathoner Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted February 3, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,245 Content Per Day: 7.09 Reputation: 13,259 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2023 I meant to include this post in the one above, but I'm having a wonderful time navigating the typo garden of this phone's keyboard. Oh well. Most will know that I'm not the least bit concerned with those who accuse us. We hear everything under the sun: you're a pagan because of this, or disobedient because of that. You fail to do this! You refuse to do that!... And so on. I pay that no mind for I know whom I serve, and who delivered me from ruin: Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. I belong to Him alone. But with regard to prevalent views and beliefs regarding Satan, some detractors have a point: Satan is mistakenly regarded as the adversary of the Lord when in truth, no one and nothing can oppose God. He has no equal, my friends. The harmony of the scriptures bears testimony to the truth that Satan is our accuser... our adversary... and therefore, our enemy. When this relationship is understood, Satan's purpose as determined by God is clear (scripturally supported). Adam of the dust was tempted, and he sinned; the Son of Man, the second Adam who descended from heaven, was accordingly tempted and He did not sin. Satan can neither oppose nor deny the Lord but the adversary accuses, tempts, and deceives man. This is true, for Satan is freed to deceive the nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted February 3, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 On 2/2/2023 at 10:53 AM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said: I think the fact that it is absolutely forbidden for the living to try to talk to the dead proves that the dead do not become ghosts. I don't think that kind of communication is even possible. I've never seen a legitimate example of it. What I have seen, is demons who impersonate the dead ( since demons know every part of our lives, is easy to impersonate ) and pretend very convincingly that they are a dead relative. Hell being in a different dimension ( also Heaven ) actually makes sense. That's why we can never reach these places with human means in a lifetime, yet at death can go there pretty much instantly. When Jesus' disciples thought Jesus was a ghost when He was walking to them on the water, the word used is not the same word that is used for demons. I did some research and found that the belief in ghosts was accepted in Jesus' day. They would be the souls of departed pagans. I know that demons can also impersonate the dead and that is one reason why we are forbidden to communicate with the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted February 3, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 On 2/2/2023 at 10:13 AM, OneLight said: I would appreciate it if you would provide where you found this in scripture. Book, chapter and verse would be sufficient. This way we could discuss scripture instead of personal beliefs. Scripture is where the truth is found. I Peter 3:19, I Peter 4:6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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