Pre-tribulation (for lack of a better word)

[truth7t7]

39 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for taking the time to give all that information. Brother Scofield certainly cannot claim much fame. Brother Darby made some serious mistakes (in my humble opinion). But it is folly to set aside their beliefs and teachings based on this alone. Paul claimed the titles of Chief of sinners under inspiration (1st Tim.1:15) and carried with him a "messenger of Satan" till his dying day (2nd Cor.12:7). He also disobeyed multiple speakings of the Holy Spirit through the saints about not going to Jerusalem where his "Church-planting" career ended. Even if you can justify this blatant refusal to do what the Holy Spirit commanded, you are still faced with Paul going to the center of the "Circumcision" to partake in rite of the Law he knew was crucified with Christ. Peter might be excused for denying the Lord thrice before men, but what of his "not representing the gospel uprightly" in Galatians 2?

Should Paul and Peter's writings be discarded?

If you have studied Darby and co and found them to be wanting in doctrine, you, as a reasonable man, should have a reason. Are you not bound to make it your work to convince not so gifted Christians using a sound counter argument? I teach a rapture of harvest - that is, there is one rapture of "Firstfruits", which continues some time later when the heat and dryness has ripened the rest, and then a further catching away of the gleanings like the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. It is an absolute minority point of view and not well accepted, but I stand ready to give my argument day and night. It was not me who said the "gathering of the Wheat" at the end of the age was a harvest. It was our Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 13:30 & 39. If all the facts fit this theory am I not bound to cling to to it and teach until a better argument is established?

My argument places the diligent, faithful and Christ-loving Christian in the air before the onset of the Great Tribulation. It answers why the bulk of Christians are left to face the Beast and the Great Tribulation (Rev.7:9-17 & 13:7). It answers why Paul said the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (lit. Gk.) of Philippians 3 must be "attained to". It includes the Jewish Remnant Sealed but not removed from earth. And it allows for only SOME to have the right garment for the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in Revelation 19. It is only unpopular because the bulk of Christianity are fed a diet of "everything is is FREE" - just like the foolish Virgins of Matthew 25.

But we've been through this together before. I don't mind if you don't answer.

"Yes" Daniel 12:1-2 is a "Parallel" teaching of the GWTJ seen in Revelation 20:14-15 

Daniel goes into great detail on the events and timing

1.)Daniel states below that there will be a time of great trouble never experienced before in history (The Great Tribulation) and he uses the words "At That Time"

2.) Daniel clearly states that at this time (The Book Of Life) is opened in (Final Judgement), "Everyone That Shall Be Found Written In The Book"

3.) Daniel clearly shows that the resurrection of "All" takes place at this time, "Everlasting Life" "Everlasting Contempt"

Conclusion: Daniel clearly teaches that at the time of the great tribulation that the resurrection of "All" takes place in the final judgement, the book of life will be opened "Once"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Edited March 12, 2023 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Scripture clearly teaches that when Jesus returns and the resurrection takes place at "The Last Trump"  (The Last Enemy Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Will You falsely believe and teach mortal time continues on this earth beyond the "Second Coming" 

Will You openly deny the truth of scripture below, in false claims death isn't swallowed up in victory below?

"All" that are in the Graves shall hear his voice and come forth, both righteous and wicked "All"!

Jesus Is The Lord

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Then Cometh The End) (The Last Enemy Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I have answered this theory of yours before - and you did not comment. But I will do it again.

"The LAST trump" is the LAST trump for CHRISTIANS, The people who Paul addresses in 1st Corinthians 15:50 is "WE" - the Church. Israel is gathered AFTER the Church and they are gathered at the call of a Trumpet (Matt.24:31) and this Trumpet is AFTER the Christians are resurrected. But to Israel it is not the "LAST" trumpet because during the millennium they will be under the New Covenant, which has the Law, and the Law contains the Feast of Trumpets. Israel will feast this feast for a thousand years - so there is not talk of the "LAST" Trumpet for Israel.

1st Corinthians 15:22-26 contains the following sequence:
1. Christ's resurrection
2. THEN those who are Christ's "AT HIS COMING"
3. THEN Christ must REIGN until all enemies are subdued. Since one of them is Magog, and there is a huge slaughter at Hamon-Gog, death is not defeated yet.
4 THEN at the White throne is death defeated as Hades is emptied

This sequence spans 3,000 years.

In John 5 you started your quote at verse 28. You should have started at verse 25. The sequence then is different. The text reads;

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

King James Version (WORDsearch Edition). (n.d.). (Jn 5:24–29). WORDsearch.

Verse 24; Some will hear the gospel and go from death to eternal life
Verse 25; These, though they die physically, will live. The "voice of the Son of God" is a "Shout" (1st Thess.4:16) but it is for the Church only
Verse 27. Judgment follows because judgment must BEGIN at the House of God - the Bema (1st Pet.4:17, Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10)
Verse 28. At a future "hour" (one that is NOT "now" - v.27) "ALL" who are in graves are "the Rest of the dead". The Christian and Jew have already left their graves 1,000 years earlier. They are DIFFERENT from those of verse 24. Those of verse 24 have ALL passed to life, while those of verse 29 are divided - some to life and some to damnation.

Contained in this sequence is those who react to the gospel. They pass to life at rebirth. Then they are resurrected when Christ comes. Then "ALL" who are left in graves are resurrected to the White Throne Judgment.

There is nothing false in my arguments. They follow the grammar of scripture. Nothing was added or subtracted. All is laid forth for scrutiny.

[AdHoc]

41 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

"Yes" Daniel 12:1-2 is a "Parallel" teaching of the GWTJ seen in Revelation 20:14-15 

Daniel goes into great detail on the events and timing

1.)Daniel states below that there will be a time of great trouble never experienced before in history (The Great Tribulation) and he uses the words "At That Time"

2.) Daniel clearly states that at this time (The Book Of Life) is opened in (Final Judgement), "Everyone That Shall Be Found Written In The Book"

3.) Daniel clearly shows that the resurrection of "All" takes place at this time, "Everlasting Life" "Everlasting Contempt"

Conclusion: Daniel clearly teaches that at the time of the great tribulation that the resurrection of "All" takes place in the final judgement, the book of life will be opened "Once"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Your argument fails completely because Daniel 12:1-2 addresses "YOUR PEOPLE" - Daniel's people - ISRAEL (Dan.9:20) - NOT ALL MEN

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I have answered this theory of yours before - and you did not comment. But I will do it again.

This post I'm answering by Adhoc was spoken to answer 7t7. But excuse me for commenting.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

"The LAST trump" is the LAST trump for CHRISTIANS, The people who Paul addresses in 1st Corinthians 15:50 is "WE" - the Church.

The "church" is the kingdom of Israel that began on Pentecost in 33 AD, at least 2-3 years before any gentiles were allowed. Although Paul writes to the gentile members of the kingdom of Israel, the basic body is the natural branches Israel, who are the main subject center of the "church".

Israel was called the "called out" before the Pentecost kingdom began. 

So to call the Pentecost kingdom the "church" distorts the meaning as a NT event.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Israel is gathered AFTER the Church

The believing children of Israel ARE the "church", the center subject. When Jesus comes for the Pentecost gospel kingdom, He is coming for the believing children of Israel. (And the adopted gentiles, as an addition detail)

The group of souls, in the gospel kingdom, cannot be separated by Jew and gentile at the resur/rapt. They are one group kingdom.

When Jesus comes for the kingdom of Israel, then the believers, Jews and gentiles, will be taken at the resur/rapt.

Then human life on this planet ends in fire.

The flesh children of Israel who do not accept Jesus and the gospel Pentecost kingdom will NOT have a 2nd chance then.

Their chance as a nation is happening right now, since the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967.

When the Bible speaks about the kingdom, it is centered on the believing flesh of the children of Israel, and is spoken of in that context.

The RCC has made popular the idea that the flesh children of Israel are not the subject of the "church", in prophecy, but have made the gentiles the main center subject.

As a result, the idea is that the gentiles will be taken and the flesh unbelieving branches will have a second chance, which they will not. 

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

and they are gathered at the call of a Trumpet (Matt.24:31)

Matt 24:31 is the 5th trumpet that gathers flesh Israel, believing and unbelieving, out of the gentile nations where they have been for 1900 years, to restore Jerusalem in 1967.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

and this Trumpet is AFTER the Christians are resurrected.

Instead of saying Christians, try saying the members of the New Covenant Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel.

The Christians are Israel. When the Christians are taken, the kingdom of Israel is taken. Then it is the end.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But to Israel it is not the "LAST" trumpet because during the millennium they will be under the New Covenant, which has the Law, and the Law contains the Feast of Trumpets.

You cannot have the Law and the New Covenant, both in force at the same time. The Law of Moses is dead.

The new covenant began on Pentecost, in 33 AD.

The new covenant is by faith. If Jesus was on this planet, in His glory, then it would not be by faith. Rom 8:24, We are saved by hope, but when Jesus comes, there will be no more hope, because He has come for us in the kingdom. Therefore no one can be saved by hope or faith after that. 

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Israel will feast this feast for a thousand years - so there is not talk of the "LAST" Trumpet for Israel.

The "last" trumpet is the last trumpet for everybody, when Jesus comes for the kingdom, Israel and gentile. After that comes the judgment of good and evil persons, Rev 11:18. (Parallel to Rev 20:11-15.)

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1st Corinthians 15:22-26 contains the following sequence:

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. Christ's resurrection

Jesus and the OT saints, Israel and gentile, 33 AD.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2. THEN those who are Christ's "AT HIS COMING"
3. THEN Christ must REIGN until all enemies are subdued. Since one of them is Magog, and there is a huge slaughter at Hamon-Gog, death is not defeated yet.

#3 comes first. After Jesus and the OT saints are resurrected in 33 AD, then Jesus and the OT saints, reign over the gospel kingdom of Israel, from heaven, through the scriptures and the NT letters.

#2 then Jesus comes for the kingdom and human life on this planet ends forever.

It says that after Jesus comes for the kingdom that, " ... then cometh the end, " when He delivers the kingdom to the Father, which happens after the last judgment. (Parallel to Rev 20, where death is destroyed.)

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

4 THEN at the White throne is death defeated as Hades is emptied

yes

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This sequence spans 3,000 years.

yes

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In John 5 you started your quote at verse 28. You should have started at verse 25. The sequence then is different. The text reads;

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

King James Version (WORDsearch Edition). (n.d.). (Jn 5:24–29). WORDsearch.

Verse 24; Some will hear the gospel and go from death to eternal life
Verse 25; These, though they die physically, will live. The "voice of the Son of God" is a "Shout" (1st Thess.4:16) but it is for the Church only
Verse 27. Judgment follows because judgment must BEGIN at the House of God - the Bema (1st Pet.4:17, Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10)
Verse 28. At a future "hour" (one that is NOT "now" - v.27) "ALL" who are in graves are "the Rest of the dead". The Christian and Jew have already left their graves 1,000 years earlier. They are DIFFERENT from those of verse 24. Those of verse 24 have ALL passed to life, while those of verse 29 are divided - some to life and some to damnation.

 

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Contained in this sequence is those who react to the gospel. They pass to life at rebirth. Then they are resurrected when Christ comes. Then "ALL" who are left in graves are resurrected to the White Throne Judgment.

Thanks for you explanation on John 5. I hadn't thought of it like that before. Reading it as you do, it would certainly be true.

 But there might be a problem of making it fit into other timelines, without some adjustments in those timelines. That would involve the number of resurrections shown in other places. I will have to think about it.

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is nothing false in my arguments. They follow the grammar of scripture. Nothing was added or subtracted. All is laid forth for scrutiny.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by abcdef

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1st Corinthians 15:22-26 contains the following sequence:
1. Christ's resurrection
2. THEN those who are Christ's "AT HIS COMING"
3. THEN Christ must REIGN until all enemies are subdued. Since one of them is Magog, and there is a huge slaughter at Hamon-Gog, death is not defeated yet.
4 THEN at the White throne is death defeated as Hades is emptied

This sequence spans 3,000 years.

When Jesus Christ Returns The Resurrection Takes Place, At This Time "Mortal" Becomes "Immortal", At This Time "The Last Enemy Death" In Verse 26 Is Destroyed, The Kingdom Is Delivered Up At This Time

You Don't Want To See The Last Enemy Death Destroyed Below, Because Your Pre-Determined Millennial Kingdom On Earth "Disappears" Before Your Eyes

You Act As If The Last Enemy Death Isn't Destroyed Below "Why"?

The Scripture Is Clear, Simple, Easy To Understand, And Before Your Eyes

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(Verses 52-54 Below Explains How The Last Enemy Death Is Destroyed, At The Second Coming And Resurrection)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Edited March 13, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your argument fails completely because Daniel 12:1-2 addresses "YOUR PEOPLE" - Daniel's people - ISRAEL (Dan.9:20) - NOT ALL MEN

Daniel 12:1-2 addresses the final resurrection and judgement of "All", there is only one book of life, and it's opened

Thats A Big "No Cigar" Hoc, amazing how far one will go to prop up a false teaching and belief in a MK on earth

"Yes" Daniel 12:1-2 is a "Parallel" teaching of the GWTJ seen in Revelation 20:14-15 

Daniel goes into great detail on the events and timing

1.)Daniel states below that there will be a time of great trouble never experienced before in history (The Great Tribulation) and he uses the words "At That Time"

2.) Daniel clearly states that at this time (The Book Of Life) is opened in (Final Judgement), "Everyone That Shall Be Found Written In The Book"

3.) Daniel clearly shows that the resurrection of "All" takes place at this time, "Everlasting Life" "Everlasting Contempt"

Conclusion: Daniel clearly teaches that at the time of the great tribulation that the resurrection of "All" takes place in the final judgement, the book of life will be opened "Once"

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Edited March 13, 2023 by truth7t7

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:58 PM, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the church as you claim, it's the invention of John N. Darby 1830's and supported by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, better known as dispensationalism

I must respectfully disagree. I have probably heard hundreds of times that Darby invented the "rapture" teaching. It's a very common belief in many christian circles. However it is also completely false. Darby definitely popularized the current modern day rapture, however the teaching itself ( not only is found in scripture ) but can be traced all the way back to Clement Of Rome in the 1st century and Ignatius Of Antioch in the 2nd century. Irenaeus Of Lyon and even the great Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John also believed in the rapture. Also, I would make the argument that even if a teaching is fairly new, that doesn't necessarily make it false. Many things in scripture were hidden until latter times. Many in the 1st and 2nd century church were Post Tribulationists, BUT that was not because of scripture. It was because they believed ( falsely ) that the intense persecution they were experiencing under Rome was the actual Tribulation. Finally, I don't personally believe in dispensationalism. I can't say for certain it's a false teaching, only that it really doesn't make much sense without reading between alot of scripture. 

[truth7t7]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your argument fails completely because Daniel 12:1-2 addresses "YOUR PEOPLE" - Daniel's people - ISRAEL (Dan.9:20) - NOT ALL MEN

I Strongly Disagree, The Horse Is Dead

Jesus Is The Lord

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I must respectfully disagree. I have probably heard hundreds of times that Darby invented the "rapture" teaching. It's a very common belief in many christian circles. However it is also completely false. Darby definitely popularized the current modern day rapture, however the teaching itself ( not only is found in scripture ) but can be traced all the way back to Clement Of Rome in the 1st century and Ignatius Of Antioch in the 2nd century. Irenaeus Of Lyon and even the great Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John also believed in the rapture. Also, I would make the argument that even if a teaching is fairly new, that doesn't necessarily make it false. Many things in scripture were hidden until latter times. Many in the 1st and 2nd century church were Post Tribulationists, BUT that was not because of scripture. It was because they believed ( falsely ) that the intense persecution they were experiencing under Rome was the actual Tribulation. Finally, I don't personally believe in dispensationalism. I can't say for certain it's a false teaching, only that it really doesn't make much sense without reading between alot of scripture. 

You will note you cited several early church fathers in claims they taught of a (pre-trib) rapture?

You will note you gave no citations from these early church fathers to support your claim made, waiting?

Jesus Is The Lord

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, abcdef said:

This post I'm answering by Adhoc was spoken to answer 7t7. But excuse me for commenting.

 

The "church" is the kingdom of Israel that began on Pentecost in 33 AD, at least 2-3 years before any gentiles were allowed. Although Paul writes to the gentile members of the kingdom of Israel, the basic body is the natural branches Israel, who are the main subject center of the "church".

Israel was called the "called out" before the Pentecost kingdom began. 

So to call the Pentecost kingdom the "church" distorts the meaning as a NT event.

 

The believing children of Israel ARE the "church", the center subject. When Jesus comes for the Pentecost gospel kingdom, He is coming for the believing children of Israel. (And the adopted gentiles, as an addition detail)

The group of souls, in the gospel kingdom, cannot be separated by Jew and gentile at the resur/rapt. They are one group kingdom.

When Jesus comes for the kingdom of Israel, then the believers, Jews and gentiles, will be taken at the resur/rapt.

Then human life on this planet ends in fire.

The flesh children of Israel who do not accept Jesus and the gospel Pentecost kingdom will NOT have a 2nd chance then.

Their chance as a nation is happening right now, since the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967.

When the Bible speaks about the kingdom, it is centered on the believing flesh of the children of Israel, and is spoken of in that context.

The RCC has made popular the idea that the flesh children of Israel are not the subject of the "church", in prophecy, but have made the gentiles the main center subject.

As a result, the idea is that the gentiles will be taken and the flesh unbelieving branches will have a second chance, which they will not. 

 

Matt 24:31 is the 5th trumpet that gathers flesh Israel, believing and unbelieving, out of the gentile nations where they have been for 1900 years, to restore Jerusalem in 1967.

 

Instead of saying Christians, try saying the members of the New Covenant Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel.

The Christians are Israel. When the Christians are taken, the kingdom of Israel is taken. Then it is the end.

 

You cannot have the Law and the New Covenant, both in force at the same time. The Law of Moses is dead.

The new covenant began on Pentecost, in 33 AD.

The new covenant is by faith. If Jesus was on this planet, in His glory, then it would not be by faith. Rom 8:24, We are saved by hope, but when Jesus comes, there will be no more hope, because He has come for us in the kingdom. Therefore no one can be saved by hope or faith after that. 

 

The "last" trumpet is the last trumpet for everybody, when Jesus comes for the kingdom, Israel and gentile. After that comes the judgment of good and evil persons, Rev 11:18. (Parallel to Rev 20:11-15.)

 

 

Jesus and the OT saints, Israel and gentile, 33 AD.

 

#3 comes first. After Jesus and the OT saints are resurrected in 33 AD, then Jesus and the OT saints, reign over the gospel kingdom of Israel, from heaven, through the scriptures and the NT letters.

#2 then Jesus comes for the kingdom and human life on this planet ends forever.

It says that after Jesus comes for the kingdom that, " ... then cometh the end, " when He delivers the kingdom to the Father, which happens after the last judgment. (Parallel to Rev 20, where death is destroyed.)

 

yes

 

yes

 

 

 

Thanks for you explanation on John 5. I hadn't thought of it like that before. Reading it as you do, it would certainly be true.

 But there might be a problem of making it fit into other timelines, without some adjustments in those timelines. That would involve the number of resurrections shown in other places. I will have to think about it.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, abcdef said:

This post I'm answering by Adhoc was spoken to answer 7t7. But excuse me for commenting.

 

The "church" is the kingdom of Israel that began on Pentecost in 33 AD, at least 2-3 years before any gentiles were allowed. Although Paul writes to the gentile members of the kingdom of Israel, the basic body is the natural branches Israel, who are the main subject center of the "church".

Israel was called the "called out" before the Pentecost kingdom began. 

So to call the Pentecost kingdom the "church" distorts the meaning as a NT event.

 

The believing children of Israel ARE the "church", the center subject. When Jesus comes for the Pentecost gospel kingdom, He is coming for the believing children of Israel. (And the adopted gentiles, as an addition detail)

The group of souls, in the gospel kingdom, cannot be separated by Jew and gentile at the resur/rapt. They are one group kingdom.

When Jesus comes for the kingdom of Israel, then the believers, Jews and gentiles, will be taken at the resur/rapt.

Then human life on this planet ends in fire.

The flesh children of Israel who do not accept Jesus and the gospel Pentecost kingdom will NOT have a 2nd chance then.

Their chance as a nation is happening right now, since the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967.

When the Bible speaks about the kingdom, it is centered on the believing flesh of the children of Israel, and is spoken of in that context.

The RCC has made popular the idea that the flesh children of Israel are not the subject of the "church", in prophecy, but have made the gentiles the main center subject.

As a result, the idea is that the gentiles will be taken and the flesh unbelieving branches will have a second chance, which they will not. 

 

Matt 24:31 is the 5th trumpet that gathers flesh Israel, believing and unbelieving, out of the gentile nations where they have been for 1900 years, to restore Jerusalem in 1967.

 

Instead of saying Christians, try saying the members of the New Covenant Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel.

The Christians are Israel. When the Christians are taken, the kingdom of Israel is taken. Then it is the end.

 

You cannot have the Law and the New Covenant, both in force at the same time. The Law of Moses is dead.

The new covenant began on Pentecost, in 33 AD.

The new covenant is by faith. If Jesus was on this planet, in His glory, then it would not be by faith. Rom 8:24, We are saved by hope, but when Jesus comes, there will be no more hope, because He has come for us in the kingdom. Therefore no one can be saved by hope or faith after that. 

 

The "last" trumpet is the last trumpet for everybody, when Jesus comes for the kingdom, Israel and gentile. After that comes the judgment of good and evil persons, Rev 11:18. (Parallel to Rev 20:11-15.)

 

 

Jesus and the OT saints, Israel and gentile, 33 AD.

 

#3 comes first. After Jesus and the OT saints are resurrected in 33 AD, then Jesus and the OT saints, reign over the gospel kingdom of Israel, from heaven, through the scriptures and the NT letters.

#2 then Jesus comes for the kingdom and human life on this planet ends forever.

It says that after Jesus comes for the kingdom that, " ... then cometh the end, " when He delivers the kingdom to the Father, which happens after the last judgment. (Parallel to Rev 20, where death is destroyed.)

 

yes

 

yes

 

 

 

Thanks for you explanation on John 5. I hadn't thought of it like that before. Reading it as you do, it would certainly be true.

 But there might be a problem of making it fit into other timelines, without some adjustments in those timelines. That would involve the number of resurrections shown in other places. I will have to think about it.

 

 

I appreciate your input, and I appreciate that you took some time and thought for your statements. Because you wanted to address your fundamental beliefs, your answers had more to do with corrections than the topic of whether there is a pre-tribulation rapture or not. Be that as it may, I will not answer you point for point because our understandings of the Israel/Church dispute are so far apart that nothing will be achieved. Instead, I will give a short summary of my view and leave it at that - unless you open a new thread on the matter.

In Genesis 1:11-12 God sets forth a law of "KINDS". Whatever has its seed in itself and propagates, will, without exception, produce its same KIND. This law is observable and functions perfectly to this day. Cats have kittens, wheat brings forth more wheat and foxes and dogs cannot mate because they are different KINDS. This law is so important that the humanity of Jesus hangs on it just as much as His divinity. And the peoples of this earth are a certain KIND because of who they were born to. That is why, in Luke 11 God can hold Pharisees who lived at Jesus' time responsible for the death of Abel (v.51). They are ONE GENERATION - that of the serpent.

From Adam to Abraham all men came from the loins of Adam via Noah. These peoples are called "the Nations". From Jacob, seed of Abraham, came a particular Nation who are called after Jacob when his name was changed by God to Israel. So besides THE NATIONS there is THE NATION OF ISRAEL. Israel's ORIGIN is Adam - Noah - Abraham - Isaac - Jacob. Thus, there were TWO peoples on earth -those IN Adam and those IN Adam via Jacob. Since BOTH had their ORIGIN IN Adam, their ORIGIN was "THE FLESH". So in Romans 9:3-4 Paul calls them; "my brethren according to the flesh, Israelites ... ". But then God made a New Man out of the TWO Peoples of earth. They were not born to women, but by the Holy Spirit.

 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Co 5:16–17)

According to the Law of "KINDS" this New Man was unique and did not come from The Nations nor the Nation of Israel. Adam's seed was corrupted and so the Bible tells us of the ORIGIN of the New Man as "NOT born of corruptible seed" (1st Pet 1:23). This KIND has nothing Israelite and it has nothing of the Nations. It is a NEW CREATURE with no ethnicity. And so scripture tells us that IN this New Man "IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK"  (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11). Although a man might have a British passport, and another man have an Israeli passport, that has nothing to do with God's New Man. Their ethnicity just doesn't exist before God. It even says that, "old things are PASSED AWAY ... ". Your life, your heritage, you social status JUST DON'T EXIST IN THE CHURCH.

Now you can see how impossible your theory is about a Pentecost Israeli Kingdom ... or whatever name you give it. Maybe you don't agree right now, but at least you can see how far apart our beliefs are. If you introduce any heritage, the Bible, not me, will say "IT HAS PASSED AWAY". Is there Israel? YES. Are they a people of God? YES. Will they be restored as a Nation? YES. But in the New Man there is NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE - BUT A NEW CREATURE! "ALL" things are NEW! And in the Bible, "ALL" really means "ALL".