Revived Rome, or the Assyrian?

[Diaste]

Does the Daniel 2 statue mention Rome? I don't see it.

Does Daniel 11 mention Rome? I don't see that either.

Does Revelation 17:10 mention Rome? Not to my knowledge.

Does any prophecy of eschatology mention Rome as the final kingdom? I have never seen it written.

What prophecy does say:

Dan 8.

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece,b and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power."

That's not Rome, it's the Diadochi that directly follows Greece in the timeline.

Dan 11.

"Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

Again Greece is divided into the realms of the Diadochi.

If then Dan 11:30-31 is a prophecy of Antiochus IV Epiphanes;

"Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

and it is, and if this is the type and shadow of the coming A of D; and it is, then it was committed by a Syrian king from the line of Seleucus.

Nearly all of Dan 11 describes the wars of the Diadochi, Rome is never even hinted at in all the prophecies of Daniel concerning the end. 

In fact, I don't see Rome even a single time in any eschatological prophecy.

Many say it's Rome based on made up criteria such as, "Rome ruled Israel while the Jews were still in Israel, so it must be Rome." That isn't a biblical criteria of interpretation. 

Greece was the world power that followed the Medo-Persian Empire. The Diadochi, not Rome, followed Greece, as it is written.

Then the Syrian.

 

[Selah7]

24 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Does the Daniel 2 statue mention Rome? I don't see it.

Does Daniel 11 mention Rome? I don't see that either.

Does Revelation 17:10 mention Rome? Not to my knowledge.

Does any prophecy of eschatology mention Rome as the final kingdom? I have never seen it written.

What prophecy does say:

Dan 8.

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat represents the king of Greece,b and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power."

That's not Rome, it's the Diadochi that directly follows Greece in the timeline.

Dan 11.

"Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

Again Greece is divided into the realms of the Diadochi.

If then Dan 11:30-31 is a prophecy of Antiochus IV Epiphanes;

"Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

and it is, and if this is the type and shadow of the coming A of D; and it is, then it was committed by a Syrian king from the line of Seleucus.

Nearly all of Dan 11 describes the wars of the Diadochi, Rome is never even hinted at in all the prophecies of Daniel concerning the end. 

In fact, I don't see Rome even a single time in any eschatological prophecy.

Many say it's Rome based on made up criteria such as, "Rome ruled Israel while the Jews were still in Israel, so it must be Rome." That isn't a biblical criteria of interpretation. 

Greece was the world power that followed the Medo-Persian Empire. The Diadochi, not Rome, followed Greece, as it is written.

Then the Syrian.

 

Hey, Diaste…  Now I realize you and others will not agree with me that the AC is none other than Satan, but nonetheless…

The Assyrian is one of Satan's titles.  Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 31:3 refer to him by that name.

Chapter 14 of Isaiah is all about the fall of the Babylon of Revelation and it tells us what happens to Lucifer (Satan) himself through the Millennium years.  

Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.  Ezekiel 31:3 (KJV)

 

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Greece was the world power that followed the Medo-Persian Empire. The Diadochi, not Rome, followed Greece, as it is written.

These Diadochi were the continuation of Greek empire.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

In fact, I don't see Rome even a single time in any eschatological prophecy.

It is the fourth kingdom of both Daniel 2 & 7. Also alluded to in Daniel 11:38-39 --

" The Transition Era

Daniel 11:38 But in his place/estate/station he shall give glory to a god of fortresses; and to a god which his fathers knew not he shall give glory with gold, and with silver, and with precious stones, and with desirable things. 39 And/so he shall act for defenders of fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall cause to revere, cause to multiply glory; and he shall cause them to rule among the multitudes. And he shall divide/allot land at a profit.

The much-debated passage of Daniel 11:38-39 speaks only in general terms about the transition period between the time of the god-man Antiochus and “the time of the end.” This passage begins with the phrase, “in his [Antiochusʼs] place/estate/station,” a phrase used previously in verses 7, 20, and 21 to describe the transition of the Seleucid kingdom from a king to his descendant.

The Hebrew noun for “place/estate/station” literally means “something set up.” That is, each king inherited the cumulative “set-ups” of the kingly line, and then added his own acts upon them. These set-ups included, most importantly, the establishment of a belief system.

As noted above, the belief system culminating with Antiochus, which was then passed along to the Romans, was that great human rulers can become known as, and then should be worshiped as, gods.

Upon that “estate,” descendent rulers began to “give glory to a god of fortresses.” Dan. 11:38 Uniquely among the four beast-kingdoms of Daniel 7, the Romans were fort-builders. Previously, cities and temples were what had been fortified, and armies were garrisoned within them at need. But the Roman Empire became the greatest of the four through the practice of their legions building forts for themselves. By this means, their armies were able to concentrate their forces on the ever-expanding boundaries of the empire. There they were readily available to deal with incipient threats, without requiring the time and expense of moving soldiers, equipment, and supplies long distances. (Whereas, for example, the practice of Antiochus was to plunder and leave. This allowed the conquered peoples time to regroup and resist, as the Maccabees did.)

The practice of building military bases, not fortified cities, became the standard for the Anglo-European posterity of the Roman Empire. (That is, those Western governments principally deriving their laws, traditions, and governments from Roman ones.) In our day, such military bases are found throughout the world.

In Revelation 2:12-14, Jesus said the city of Pergamos was “where Satanʼs throne is…where Satan dwells.” According to Strongʼs (G4010), Pergamos means Fortified (Place); it was the capital of Roman Asia. In the Apostle Johnʼs day, the ancient Babylonian religion was practiced in its temple. Many tenets of that religion became infused within pagan Rome, and later within the Roman Church. Therefore, Pergamos may have been the source of the “foreign god” “which [Antiochusʼ] fathers knew not.” In the 1890s, a substantial part of Pergamosʼs ancient temple was disassembled, moved to, and reconstructed in Berlin, where it stands today. "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1418-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-2-the-transition-from-the-past-to-the-present/

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2023 at 5:21 AM, Selah7 said:

Hey, Diaste…  Now I realize you and others will not agree with me that the AC is none other than Satan, but nonetheless…

The Assyrian is one of Satan's titles.  Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 31:3 refer to him by that name.

Chapter 14 of Isaiah is all about the fall of the Babylon of Revelation and it tells us what happens to Lucifer (Satan) himself through the Millennium years.  

Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.  Ezekiel 31:3 (KJV)

 

I don't disagree.

I'm asking whether it's a revived Rome in the end times, or as scripture suggests, another Assyrian; or at least from that Empire/region.

[Selah7]

9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I don't disagree.

I'm asking whether it's a revived Rome in the end times, or as scripture suggests, another Assyrian; or at least from that Empire/region.

Nah, it’s the Antichrist, the dragon , the devil (aka the “Assyrian”).  

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

- Revelation 13:4-9 (KJV)

[Michael37]

On 3/22/2023 at 11:21 PM, Diaste said:

In fact, I don't see Rome even a single time in any eschatological prophecy.

Respectfully, Diaste my friend, so what?

There's plenty of other stuff involving Rome to join the dots with.

I like that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem because God used Rome, Jesus was crucified because God used Rome, Paul travelled roads, preached to nations, and wrote letters which became Scripture because God used Rome. and John was on Patmos for the Revelation because God used Rome. 

What do you think of the assertion that the term Assyrian is used metaphorically in Scripture? 

[Diaste]

24 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Nah, it’s the Antichrist, the dragon , the devil (aka the “Assyrian”).  

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

- Revelation 13:4-9 (KJV)

All a single entity? Hmmm...

[Diaste]

Just now, Michael37 said:

Respectfully, Diaste my friend, so what?

There's plenty of other stuff involving Rome to join the dots with.

I think it's important to look in the proper direction. 

Just now, Michael37 said:

I like that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem because God used Rome, Jesus was crucified because God used Rome, Paul travelled roads, preached to nations, and wrote letters which became Scripture because God used Rome. and John was on Patmos for the Revelation because God used Rome. 

Just because Rome was a backdrop to the entire NT is not evidence of accurate eschatological interpretation in the context of the Iron Kingdom of Daniel 2, the diverse beast of Daniel 7, the obvious succession of Greece to the Diadochi in Daniel 8, and it's iteration in Daniel 11. 

And what of the Daniel 11 narrative following the wars and acts of the Diadochi, right to the willful king of Daniel 11:36-37; the willful king who is the beast of the end of the age?

Rome is inserted in these passages apart from evidence.

Just now, Michael37 said:

What do you think of the assertion that the term Assyrian is used metaphorically in Scripture? 

It's possible given proper context. I can't assume such a thing unless the text reveals it's the case.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:47 AM, WilliamL said:

These Diadochi were the continuation of Greek empire.

It is the fourth kingdom of both Daniel 2 & 7. Also alluded to in Daniel 11:38-39 --

" The Transition Era

Daniel 11:38 But in his place/estate/station he shall give glory to a god of fortresses; and to a god which his fathers knew not he shall give glory with gold, and with silver, and with precious stones, and with desirable things. 39 And/so he shall act for defenders of fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall cause to revere, cause to multiply glory; and he shall cause them to rule among the multitudes. And he shall divide/allot land at a profit.

The much-debated passage of Daniel 11:38-39 speaks only in general terms about the transition period between the time of the god-man Antiochus and “the time of the end.” This passage begins with the phrase, “in his [Antiochusʼs] place/estate/station,” a phrase used previously in verses 7, 20, and 21 to describe the transition of the Seleucid kingdom from a king to his descendant.

The Hebrew noun for “place/estate/station” literally means “something set up.” That is, each king inherited the cumulative “set-ups” of the kingly line, and then added his own acts upon them. These set-ups included, most importantly, the establishment of a belief system.

As noted above, the belief system culminating with Antiochus, which was then passed along to the Romans, was that great human rulers can become known as, and then should be worshiped as, gods.

Upon that “estate,” descendent rulers began to “give glory to a god of fortresses.” Dan. 11:38 Uniquely among the four beast-kingdoms of Daniel 7, the Romans were fort-builders. Previously, cities and temples were what had been fortified, and armies were garrisoned within them at need. But the Roman Empire became the greatest of the four through the practice of their legions building forts for themselves. By this means, their armies were able to concentrate their forces on the ever-expanding boundaries of the empire. There they were readily available to deal with incipient threats, without requiring the time and expense of moving soldiers, equipment, and supplies long distances. (Whereas, for example, the practice of Antiochus was to plunder and leave. This allowed the conquered peoples time to regroup and resist, as the Maccabees did.)

The practice of building military bases, not fortified cities, became the standard for the Anglo-European posterity of the Roman Empire. (That is, those Western governments principally deriving their laws, traditions, and governments from Roman ones.) In our day, such military bases are found throughout the world.

In Revelation 2:12-14, Jesus said the city of Pergamos was “where Satanʼs throne is…where Satan dwells.” According to Strongʼs (G4010), Pergamos means Fortified (Place); it was the capital of Roman Asia. In the Apostle Johnʼs day, the ancient Babylonian religion was practiced in its temple. Many tenets of that religion became infused within pagan Rome, and later within the Roman Church. Therefore, Pergamos may have been the source of the “foreign god” “which [Antiochusʼ] fathers knew not.” In the 1890s, a substantial part of Pergamosʼs ancient temple was disassembled, moved to, and reconstructed in Berlin, where it stands today. "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1418-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-2-the-transition-from-the-past-to-the-present/

I'm trying to be serious.

 

[Selah7]

24 minutes ago, Diaste said:

All a single entity? Hmmm...

No not a single entity …

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea (peoples), having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (This is a multi-headed government/one-world system). And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon (the AC) gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; (the one-world system receives a deadly wound) and his deadly wound was healed (by the AC/Satan): and all the world wondered after the beast (one-world system). And they worshipped the dragon (the AC) which gave power unto the beast (one-world system): and they worshipped the beast (the AC), saying, Who is like unto the beast (one-world system)? who is able to make war with him?

- Revelation 13:1-4 (KJV)

s e l a h

Edited March 24, 2023 by Selah7