Christ in the Heavens & Christ Within

[Arial]

36 minutes ago, Alive said:

Thank you.

Just so you know, I am not making a comment on Sparks. I don't know enough about him. I was just answering the question of Christ being objective in His work but subjective in us. I don't think He is, not in the way I am viewing subjective. In what way do you see Him subjective in us? And I would ask @Vine Abider the same question.

[Alive]

18 minutes ago, Arial said:

Just so you know, I am not making a comment on Sparks. I don't know enough about him. I was just answering the question of Christ being objective in His work but subjective in us. I don't think He is, not in the way I am viewing subjective. In what way do you see Him subjective in us? And I would ask @Vine Abider the same question.

Is your relationship with the Lord intimate? Is His working with and in you personal or perhaps tailored for you?

Has He ever spoken to you dirctly to do something or go somewhere for a specific reason and it panned out just as He told you it would? And after He explained just what that event or encounter meant for you?

Has the Lord given you dreams or visions for a specific purpose…to benefit another or to build your own faith and assurance?

 

[Arial]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Is your relationship with the Lord intimate? Is His working with and in you personal or perhaps tailored for you?

Yes and yes. But I don't consider that subjective. It is the objective God doing objective things and according to His written word.

 

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Has He ever spoken to you dirctly to do something or go somewhere for a specific reason and it panned out just as He told you it would? And after He explained just what that event or encounter meant for you?

 

No and I would consider that subjective because God does not speak to us directly but through Christ and His word. It is subjective because when we first "hear" it how are we to know whether it is God or just our own thoughts? From His word I know what I need and I know what to ask Him for. And I most certainly have had Him put one of my feet in front of the other to move me out of a situation, when I did not have the strength or will to do so. But I knew it was Him. And though it was very painful, hindsight shows me it was a rescue. I couldn't get out of the situation under my own strength and He took me out. That is not subjective, it is God in action.

 

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Has the Lord given you dreams or visions for a specific purpose…to benefit another or to build your own faith and assurance?

I think so but again subjective. The proof is in the pudding. There was nothing subjective about any of the dreams or visions we see in the Bible. They were God working and the recipients knew what they were. At least in how I view subjective when it comes to Christ in us.

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Arial said:

Yes and yes. But I don't consider that subjective. It is the objective God doing objective things and according to His written word.

 

No and I would consider that subjective because God does not speak to us directly but through Christ and His word. It is subjective because when we first "hear" it how are we to know whether it is God or just our own thoughts? From His word I know what I need and I know what to ask Him for. And I most certainly have had Him put one of my feet in front of the other to move me out of a situation, when I did not have the strength or will to do so. But I knew it was Him. And though it was very painful, hindsight shows me it was a rescue. I couldn't get out of the situation under my own strength and He took me out. That is not subjective, it is God in action.

 

I think so but again subjective. The proof is in the pudding. There was nothing subjective about any of the dreams or visions we see in the Bible. They were God working and the recipients knew what they were. At least in how I view subjective when it comes to Christ in us.

Thank you. I asked those questions to cover some territory and see your response. My view of 'subjective' and what I think Sparks means is the taking of Christ's work on the Cross, His Resurrection and Ascension as real events and our inclusion in them--and see the results and their effect in our lives in a personal manner. In the same way, that He worked with and for His disciples during His 3.5 years or so walking with them. I contrast this with folks whose experience is entirely based in the mind and a sort of 'cold' rational, almost scientific way...from a distance. This is hard to explain precisely because it is 'subjective', personal and of faith.

If you like, I will share a couple specific experiences that the Lord very literally took me by the hand and walked me through--in a conversant manner.

Let me know.

[Vine Abider]

6 hours ago, Arial said:

Christ is still doing in the heavens. He finished His earthly work of redemption. He sent the Holy Spirit to be in His people to teach and sanctify them, conforming them to the image of Christ more and more. We have a responsibility on our side of His completed earthly work, and that is to learn and grow from His word. As well as pray.

But I think the major thrust of "Christ in us" via the Holy Spirit is a work we are to do as His earthly ambassadors. To spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. To grow His kingdom. We are His foot soldiers so to speak. That is the "greater things than these." that He speaks of. And just as in earthly battles, not all soldiers have the same duties, so too in God's earthly army each has their own role to play which He equips them for. There are wall walkers, and watchers on the wall, builders, and defenders of the faith, and voices of one crying in the wilderness, and intercessors. There are some who reach far and wide and some who are set in place for family. And every child of God should present their very life and character as a representative of the King.

God most often works through men---as does the devil for he imitates God. (In Rev we see the evil one even imitating the Trinity with a false trinity.) It is through His people that His kingdom grows, through the preaching of the gospel. And once a person has come into the kingdom, they are sealed with the seal of the King. Nothing and no one can take a single one out of His hand.

Yes! And I would say also we have a responsibility to just let Him operate in us - the willing and the working and the transformation.  This requires us to regularly turn to Him, communicate with Him, feast in His word, fellowship with His body, etc. & etc.

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, Arial said:

Just so you know, I am not making a comment on Sparks. I don't know enough about him. I was just answering the question of Christ being objective in His work but subjective in us. I don't think He is, not in the way I am viewing subjective. In what way do you see Him subjective in us? And I would ask @Vine Abider the same question.

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Thank you. I asked those questions to cover some territory and see your response. My view of 'subjective' and what I think Sparks means is the taking of Christ's work on the Cross, His Resurrection and Ascension as real events and our inclusion in them--and see the results and their effect in our lives in a personal manner. In the same way, that He worked with and for His disciples during His 3.5 years or so walking with them. I contrast this with folks whose experience is entirely based in the mind and a sort of 'cold' rational, almost scientific way...from a distance. This is hard to explain precisely because it is 'subjective', personal and of faith.

If you like, I will share a couple specific experiences that the Lord very literally took me by the hand and walked me through--in a conversant manner.

Let me know.

This came to me as I read Alive's response, @Arial, about the Lord being with the disciples for 3.5 years . . . and then He told them, "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. You know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:17) Jesus was with them then and could only be so close as one can be to another person while both are residing in flesh.  But after His resurrection and ascension, the Spirit was sent to live in us. Accordingly Paul wrote, "God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying, 'Abba! Father!'"  (Gal 4:6) and "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him."  (1 Cor 6:17)

Therefore, this is now part of our experience: "And as for you, the anointing you received from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so abide in Him as you have been taught." (1 John 2:27)

So Christ actually came, in a sense, to be subjective to us and this is God's new covenant way as per Jerimiah 31:33, "But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts." 

I do see what you are talking about that something "subjective" could be open to our own interpretations and feelings about something, rather than the objective word of God.  But maybe this is a matter of word semantics - how would you describe what the Spirit of Christ's work in us is if not subjective (since this is how He get's real personal and intimate with each of us)?  Perhaps there's a better word than "subjective" to use in this case . . .

Edited May 6, 2023 by Vine Abider
typo & clarity

[Marathoner]

I understand where @Alive is coming from. Indeed, many of us have received what some call "the living word" which is, to my understanding, hearing the voice of the Lord. Hearing His voice was how the Lord called me from this world from seemingly out of blue, and the way in which the Spirit of God set me on that path to coming to the Son of God who received me as His own.

There's this notion afoot that one who hears His voice claims some kind of superior knowledge or revelation as a result, but that's not true at all. That there are some who do in fact make such a claim of superior knowledge or revelation doesn't in any way silence the Lord, who is not accountable to any man. Behold the testimony of scripture wherein we learn whom the Lord chooses: not the wise or mighty of this world but rather the ignoble... the lowly... to make both the wise and mighty foolish in His sight.

I find it distressing to point out that the Lord God is not an oracle who props up a man so that he might receive the admiration or approval of his peers. There is nothing subjective whatsoever about the work of Jesus Christ in us, but His work is indeed individually-oriented which involves raising us up by His hand and equipping us to walk in the manner He ordained for us. 

Our work is not about self-enrichment or prosperity! We serve others in all that we do just as the Son of Man serves us all. The Lord equips each of us to edify and build up His Body... to serve our neighbor in this world... and to show forth that which He has given to us all: Himself.

We are not all the same, but we serve the same Lord. The same Lord moves upon each of us individually as it pleases Him. Being a recipient of the Lord's discipline, I know very well how He deals with me swiftly if and when I pull a boneheaded stunt. 

I thought I was a smart guy. Turns out that I'm a dunce.

I thought I was strong, so I became weak and disabled.

I was an excellent speaker with the "gift of gab," so I lost the ability to speak for a while. All I could manage to say was "yes" or "no."

I had to lose everything except for the life in this body (I came close to losing that, too).

Praise the Lord!

[Arial]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Thank you. I asked those questions to cover some territory and see your response. My view of 'subjective' and what I think Sparks means is the taking of Christ's work on the Cross, His Resurrection and Ascension as real events and our inclusion in them--and see the results and their effect in our lives in a personal manner. In the same way, that He worked with and for His disciples during His 3.5 years or so walking with them. I contrast this with folks whose experience is entirely based in the mind and a sort of 'cold' rational, almost scientific way...from a distance. This is hard to explain precisely because it is 'subjective', personal and of faith.

If you like, I will share a couple specific experiences that the Lord very literally took me by the hand and walked me through--in a conversant manner.

Let me know.

OK. I see what you mean and agree. It would be subjective to others because it is personal---a personal relationship in which God interacts with as who we are as individuals? And subjective because it cannot be objectively defined?

Personally--- I don't see how anyone could be joined to Christ and have it be a cold scientific experience based in the mind, but I suppose it can be. To me the things of Christ are comprehended with the mind. They must be. But from the mind, as we grasp ahold of them they penetrate the heart as well. It is a relationship between the Most Holy God and the individual. To me it is so personal that He knew my name, He knew me (and died for me anyway!) when He hung on that cross, was buried, and when He rose again. I truly died and rose again with Him. He did it for me! And that is true for everyone who is in Him. So how can it be or remain cold and distant? is what I would think.

I would enjoy hearing specifics from your life.

I wrote of one in my life in a different thread concerning rain and growing up and the book of Job. And that was God speaking to me and teaching me and I never doubted that. But He did it right directly out of His word, with the "Were you there---" as He began speaking to Job, and Job's "I have heard of you, but now I have seen you. I abhor myself." It was close to forty years ago, I remember it like yesterday, and it still brings me to tears at the amazing love and closeness of God to us, this God who sees, and hears, and knows.

[Arial]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I do see what you are talking about that something "subjective" could be open to our own interpretations and feelings about something, rather than the objective word of God.  But maybe this is a matter of word semantics - how would you describe what the Spirit of Christ's work in us is if not subjective (since this is how He get's real personal and intimate with each of us)?  Perhaps there's a better word than "subjective" to use in this case . . .

If you mean in the sense that He works in us in ways and relates to us in us that are not visible or provable I agree. It is personal. But that Keswick movement went too far so that objective truth was shoved aside. And people tend to do that. Trusting in experiences and even taken them as truth over and outside of the Bible. He is always revealing His word not new things and to Christ in us, it is not subjective---I'm sticking to my guns on that one  though I am sure the word subjective is not hitting you in the same way it hits me. I prefer to simply consider it a relationship that grows deeper.

[Marathoner]

26 minutes ago, Arial said:

OK. I see what you mean and agree. It would be subjective to others because it is personal---a personal relationship in which God interacts with as who we are as individuals? And subjective because it cannot be objectively defined?

Personally--- I don't see how anyone could be joined to Christ and have it be a cold scientific experience based in the mind, but I suppose it can be. To me the things of Christ are comprehended with the mind. They must be. But from the mind, as we grasp ahold of them they penetrate the heart as well. It is a relationship between the Most Holy God and the individual. To me it is so personal that He knew my name, He knew me (and died for me anyway!) when He hung on that cross, was buried, and when He rose again. I truly died and rose again with Him. He did it for me! And that is true for everyone who is in Him. So how can it be or remain cold and distant? is what I would think.

I would enjoy hearing specifics from your life.

I wrote of one in my life in a different thread concerning rain and growing up and the book of Job. And that was God speaking to me and teaching me and I never doubted that. But He did it right directly out of His word, with the "Were you there---" as He began speaking to Job, and Job's "I have heard of you, but now I have seen you. I abhor myself." It was close to forty years ago, I remember it like yesterday, and it still brings me to tears at the amazing love and closeness of God to us, this God who sees, and hears, and knows.

Based upon what you have shared on the forum thus far, I wasn't under the impression that you're in disagreement with our brother. On the contrary, I enjoy and have been edified by your posts! 

You relate aspects of our relationship with the Lord which resonate. You might recall what happened when I recovered the capacity for speech... I had to read the beginning of the Gospel of John until I could pronunciate every single word of the opening passage clearly and succinctly. I'm not kidding nor exaggerating when I say that was the most grueling challenge of my life!