Christ in the Heavens & Christ Within

[Arial]

25 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

This is a remarkable passage you quoted and as I've read this section many times, a question always comes up.  In one aspect Jesus speaks of the Spirit being sent like it's another person, but in another aspect He speaks as if He is the one coming to be in them.

This where the nature of the Triune God is really a mystery to us.  Is He three or one, and the answer I always come up with is "yes." They (if I can use that word) are so one that no separation is between them.  Of course then there's: "Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is one God." (Deut 6:4)

So is God in us?  Is Christ in us?  Is the Spirit in us?  As per Romans 8:9-11 the answer is YES!

As it says in John 17:20-21 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word: that they all may be one as You, Father, are in Me and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and you in Me;" (What that passage is saying bears some serious frequent pondering. It is the truest form of the meaning of awesome!)

Though the Holy Spirit is not specifically mentioned here, elsewhere Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit will be in us. It is the Holy Spirit who is One with the Father and the Son, that brings us into that oneness and keeps us there.

I have come to see the Trinity (and it is indeed impossible for the infinet  and otherness of God, His transcendence as a triune being to be comprehended and accurately explained by the finite who have only finite words and finite experience)according to the different aspects of salvation that all work in unity accomplishing the end purpose. Together, and before the foundation of the world, the  exact plan of redemption was covenanted. The Father sends the Son who comes from the Father in the form of man to do the work of redemption. Perfect righteousness and substitutionary death that satisfies God's justice against our sins. Being raised fro the dead because there was nothing in Him that death could hold and destroying the power of sin and death over the believer. Ascending back to the Father, His earthly work complete.

There still remains after this, the work of regenerating people and giving them to Christ through faith. The work of sealing them in Christ, teaching, reminding, correcting, iow sanctifying, empowering for service, spreading the gospel to all nations through them. Interceding for us in prayer, comforting, defending etc. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us and is at one with the Father and the Son in purpose, design, accomplishment, and in this way is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and Them in us. It could not be done if we were left as orphans.

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Arial said:

As it says in John 17:20-21 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word: that they all may be one as You, Father, are in Me and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and you in Me;" (What that passage is saying bears some serious frequent pondering. It is the truest form of the meaning of awesome!)

Though the Holy Spirit is not specifically mentioned here, elsewhere Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit will be in us. It is the Holy Spirit who is One with the Father and the Son, that brings us into that oneness and keeps us there.

I have come to see the Trinity (and it is indeed impossible for the infinet  and otherness of God, His transcendence as a triune being to be comprehended and accurately explained by the finite who have only finite words and finite experience)according to the different aspects of salvation that all work in unity accomplishing the end purpose. Together, and before the foundation of the world, the  exact plan of redemption was covenanted. The Father sends the Son who comes from the Father in the form of man to do the work of redemption. Perfect righteousness and substitutionary death that satisfies God's justice against our sins. Being raised fro the dead because there was nothing in Him that death could hold and destroying the power of sin and death over the believer. Ascending back to the Father, His earthly work complete.

There still remains after this, the work of regenerating people and giving them to Christ through faith. The work of sealing them in Christ, teaching, reminding, correcting, iow sanctifying, empowering for service, spreading the gospel to all nations through them. Interceding for us in prayer, comforting, defending etc. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us and is at one with the Father and the Son in purpose, design, accomplishment, and in this way is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and Them in us. It could not be done if we were left as orphans.

YUp--there is a great deal to dig out in the book of Acts, starting with the first verse:

Acts 1:1 (NAS20S)   The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,

[Arial]

36 minutes ago, Alive said:

Without going into a long account of the journey the Lord has taken me on since He rescued me, I will attempt to communicate what I have been going on about here. In the first couple years 'In Christ', other than visiting a congregation or three, I was not indoctrinated. I did however read the scripture a lot and as a simple and very excited teen and 20 year old who was on fire for the Lord, I believed what I read. I both expected and experienced Christ to be a real presence in my life. I had not yet been biased in any real way. Christ and His Life was very simple to me and very real. After this time of the 'Jesus Freak' phase and reading Watchman Nee, where I got a basic foundation of the meaning of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension and my inclusion in those real time historical events, I joined a congregation as I believe the Lord told me to do. After a time and functioning as a teacher, assistant pastor and such things, the elders of the denomination assigned me to a church to pastor.

I am skipping a lot in order to get to a few vital 'milestones'. That the Lord deemed it necessary for me. Years later looking back, I can understand better the whys and wheretofors.

I wrote these things years ago. The readers have a choice or two. Believe that these things happened just as described, think me a liar or think me delusional. Trust me, I get it...yet I am going to stick my neck out there all the while being acutely aware of the pitfalls of pride. Belieive me when I say it would be easier for me to not write these things. The enemy hates it.

The Lord wants to be a reality in our daily lives.

1. Milestone: 

Many moons ago when I was pastoring a church. A small congregation, so I worked as cab driver part time. One of the drivers name was Buddy Breaulx and I had a chance to talk with him about the Lord and he seemed very receptive. One night the Lord woke me up at 2am and told me to go see Buddy and he told me right where he would be. My wife thought I was crazy, but I told her I had to go.

Buddy was right where the Lord said he would be. I pulled up and he rolled down his window.

Meanwhile, I’m asking the Lord what He wants me to do and I had no clue, so I asked Buddy if he had thought about what we talked about. He replied saying that he believed that Christ was the Lord and such.He confessed just as the scriptures say.I wished him a good night and went home.

About two hours later, Buddy was robbed and shot in the head—dead.

Buddy went to be with the Lord and the lesson to myself was—this stuff is important and pay attention when the Lord speaks.

Later, I was able to— in my duties, to relate this story to his recent young bride. I often have wondered how many others have heard this story told since then by her and others and how the Lord has used it.

2. Milestone:

One of the early lessons the Lord taught me was the reality of demon possession. It was one of those very remarkable experiences. He told me just what was going to happen ahead of time when visiting a woman that a member asked me to visit.

I was parked outside the apartment and I asked the Lord to guide me, as was my practice. I had a sense of wrongness, which was familiar to me. He said, "go inside and I am going to teach you something".

I went inside and I immediately sensed the 'wrongness'. I began to speak with her. She tried to seduce me in a very unpleasant manner. The Lord then told me "she is going to go into the kitchen, get a knife and come out to try to kill you". Ok says I.  A moment later she went into the kitchen and I could hear the rattling of utensils in a drawer. She came out and was literally screaming in a very strange and abnormal voice, with raised butcher knife screamed 'I am going to kill you'. I rebuked the spirit and she immediately laid down and went to sleep.

The Lord told me He was done and it was time to leave.

3. Milestone:

This dream has never been shared with the Church wholesale, but was shared within the context of a ‘home church’ body of believers at the time of the dream and then as will become obvious, several years later. The dream was given many years before the 9-11 incident.

The dream was one of those that is as clear as a bell and obvious to the dreamer that it was the Lord. I do hope and pray, it will be edifying. Please understand that the Lord was careful to adhere to His admonition regarding the time is known only to the Father—and He ain’t tellin.

The dream came in two parts and was given back in the late 80’s.

First part:

I saw an airliner about to crash into the tower at the precise angle. The airliner was similar to what we had then, but it was obvious in the dream that it was larger and more modern. That was the impression given in the dream. There were flames and smoke and a clear sense of the chaos that was to follow. Again—this was the clear sense communicated in the dream. The visual was amazingly precise and the picture in the dream precisely like what was shown on TV years later.

Part two:

The second part was like turning a page as though a second chapter.

Many of us believers were gathered in a large room/building that was ‘well lit’. Again this was the strong impression given. A large room that was well lit.

While we were all in this building I found caves beneath the building and came back up stairs and said, “there are caves beneath here where we can flee and be safe. Another brother said, “we should stay here, there are more yet to come”.

As you can imagine, when 9/11 occurred there was much discussion.

Conclusions were.

A time of chaos would follow the event.

Believers would be before the Lord and that there would be a tension between fleeing or hiding somehow and waiting and trusting while bringing others in.

This was a very powerful dream that the Lord sent.

I have mentioned before, but I am convinced that the Lord gives dreams, visions, and specific direction for edification and faith building to either individuals or communities of believers—or both.

He loves us and is gracious.

edit to add: I do not believe the second part has all happened yet.

Will respond in a bit. I need to take care of a couple of things. Boaz (my dog) is pouting. It is  as though to him when I am on  the computer he is no longer my priority and even though I am here, I am not here. Silly, demanding, lovable beast.

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, Arial said:

Will respond in a bit. I need to take care of a couple of things. Boaz (my dog) is pouting. It is  as though to him when I am on  the computer he is no longer my priority and even though I am here, I am not here. Silly, demanding, lovable beast.

My Max is much the same...I work from home on the computer these days and Max let's me know when enough is enough...take me out, Dad.

[Arial]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Without going into a long account of the journey the Lord has taken me on since He rescued me, I will attempt to communicate what I have been going on about here. In the first couple years 'In Christ', other than visiting a congregation or three, I was not indoctrinated. I did however read the scripture a lot and as a simple and very excited teen and 20 year old who was on fire for the Lord, I believed what I read. I both expected and experienced Christ to be a real presence in my life. I had not yet been biased in any real way. Christ and His Life was very simple to me and very real. After this time of the 'Jesus Freak' phase and reading Watchman Nee, where I got a basic foundation of the meaning of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension and my inclusion in those real time historical events, I joined a congregation as I believe the Lord told me to do. After a time and functioning as a teacher, assistant pastor and such things, the elders of the denomination assigned me to a church to pastor.

I am skipping a lot in order to get to a few vital 'milestones'. That the Lord deemed it necessary for me. Years later looking back, I can understand better the whys and wheretofors.

I wrote these things years ago. The readers have a choice or two. Believe that these things happened just as described, think me a liar or think me delusional. Trust me, I get it...yet I am going to stick my neck out there all the while being acutely aware of the pitfalls of pride. Belieive me when I say it would be easier for me to not write these things. The enemy hates it.

The Lord wants to be a reality in our daily lives.

1. Milestone: 

Many moons ago when I was pastoring a church. A small congregation, so I worked as cab driver part time. One of the drivers name was Buddy Breaulx and I had a chance to talk with him about the Lord and he seemed very receptive. One night the Lord woke me up at 2am and told me to go see Buddy and he told me right where he would be. My wife thought I was crazy, but I told her I had to go.

Buddy was right where the Lord said he would be. I pulled up and he rolled down his window.

Meanwhile, I’m asking the Lord what He wants me to do and I had no clue, so I asked Buddy if he had thought about what we talked about. He replied saying that he believed that Christ was the Lord and such.He confessed just as the scriptures say.I wished him a good night and went home.

About two hours later, Buddy was robbed and shot in the head—dead.

Buddy went to be with the Lord and the lesson to myself was—this stuff is important and pay attention when the Lord speaks.

Later, I was able to— in my duties, to relate this story to his recent young bride. I often have wondered how many others have heard this story told since then by her and others and how the Lord has used it.

2. Milestone:

One of the early lessons the Lord taught me was the reality of demon possession. It was one of those very remarkable experiences. He told me just what was going to happen ahead of time when visiting a woman that a member asked me to visit.

I was parked outside the apartment and I asked the Lord to guide me, as was my practice. I had a sense of wrongness, which was familiar to me. He said, "go inside and I am going to teach you something".

I went inside and I immediately sensed the 'wrongness'. I began to speak with her. She tried to seduce me in a very unpleasant manner. The Lord then told me "she is going to go into the kitchen, get a knife and come out to try to kill you". Ok says I.  A moment later she went into the kitchen and I could hear the rattling of utensils in a drawer. She came out and was literally screaming in a very strange and abnormal voice, with raised butcher knife screamed 'I am going to kill you'. I rebuked the spirit and she immediately laid down and went to sleep.

The Lord told me He was done and it was time to leave.

3. Milestone:

This dream has never been shared with the Church wholesale, but was shared within the context of a ‘home church’ body of believers at the time of the dream and then as will become obvious, several years later. The dream was given many years before the 9-11 incident.

The dream was one of those that is as clear as a bell and obvious to the dreamer that it was the Lord. I do hope and pray, it will be edifying. Please understand that the Lord was careful to adhere to His admonition regarding the time is known only to the Father—and He ain’t tellin.

The dream came in two parts and was given back in the late 80’s.

First part:

I saw an airliner about to crash into the tower at the precise angle. The airliner was similar to what we had then, but it was obvious in the dream that it was larger and more modern. That was the impression given in the dream. There were flames and smoke and a clear sense of the chaos that was to follow. Again—this was the clear sense communicated in the dream. The visual was amazingly precise and the picture in the dream precisely like what was shown on TV years later.

Part two:

The second part was like turning a page as though a second chapter.

Many of us believers were gathered in a large room/building that was ‘well lit’. Again this was the strong impression given. A large room that was well lit.

While we were all in this building I found caves beneath the building and came back up stairs and said, “there are caves beneath here where we can flee and be safe. Another brother said, “we should stay here, there are more yet to come”.

As you can imagine, when 9/11 occurred there was much discussion.

Conclusions were.

A time of chaos would follow the event.

Believers would be before the Lord and that there would be a tension between fleeing or hiding somehow and waiting and trusting while bringing others in.

This was a very powerful dream that the Lord sent.

I have mentioned before, but I am convinced that the Lord gives dreams, visions, and specific direction for edification and faith building to either individuals or communities of believers—or both.

He loves us and is gracious.

edit to add: I do not believe the second part has all happened yet.

First of all just to be clear, the Lord is a reality in my daily life. 

I do not pass judgements on the experiences of God that people have as I have no clue what God is doing in and with a person or why He does it in the way He does, and I certainly do not want to step all over what He is doing. I myself bore witness to my actual conversion and the Trinity (at least that is the way I see it.) It was not a dream and I suppose it could be called a vision, but to me it seemed absolutely tangible. Yet there are many who would scoff, and many who accept the experience itself as the proof of conversion. But is is what resulted from it that makes it real.

In what you have said I recognize more strongly the individuality with which God works in us. He dealt with you in the best way for you to accomplish what He was accomplishing and I would never put limits on the way in which God does things.

I suppose my resistance to dreams and visions and God speaking to us in the manner you describe, is because from the very beginning of my walk I stepped right into a non denominational (which means in essence, the absence of doctrine I have come to learn)charismatic churches. I felt a great deal of unease about a lot of it (God working in me?) but considered, and this is embarrassing, Christians don't lie, don't make stuff up, don't have hidden agendas know much more than I do and would not say something that was not true.

So when people were saying "God told me---." "I had this or that experience." "Let God speak to you and hear His voice." They were talking about very subjective things that came privately into the mind. And whatever came to mind was God speaking---never mind whether it aligned with any scripture whatsoever. It became extant and superior to the word.

And I could not trust myself to recognize the voice of God from the voice of my mind. Go by a feeling, they would say. The strongest feeling is the Holy Spirit. And of course our strongest feeling is usually the lust of our flesh, what we most desire.

What you experienced is what you needed for God to do what He was doing, and for the reasons He was doing it. And when you heard His voice in that first account, you listened and obeyed, you did not doubt it was God. I don't think that is a common thing, that is, the way He does things with all. He didn't speak audibly to everyone in the Bible, but did so with some. The same is true with dreams and visions.

So to me I see from the standpoint God will accomplish whatever He intends to accomplish, irregardless of what I do or don't do. If I cannot trust myself to know His voice from my mind in order to save my life, He will still save my life. If I cannot tell the difference it being me that thinks God is telling me to go to a certain place to witness to a person and bring them to Christ because they are going to die that night) or God actually telling me that (many have gone on wild goose chases from that  confusion they do not know is one)He will still save the person through them hearing a believing the gospel. And if I have to know it is Him speaking, I will know by His power. He was working in you, for you, in the perfect way for you to accomplish His purposes which were not singular but multifaceted.

I too have a dream that came in the late nineties, that has never faded. I thought at the time it was from God, though I understood it less then than I do now, but still not fully. And am not even sure, though what it might have been telling me is in me and quite strongly. Perhaps I will tell it if you are interested. But not here as this is too long already, and I do hesitate for the same reasons you did.

[Alive]

Good stuff and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I would add something or more. The Lord exposed me to all kinds of folks  in christendom, including a rather large cult-like group with folks from all over the world. There were some wonderful saints there that were taken in by what is referred to by many as an 'authority movement', where members needed to submit to ones who considered themselves as 'apostles'. I saw this taken to extremes. The LOrd also exposed me to deluded leaders who practiced 'soul reading'.

All of those various experiences over the years worked in me the discernment to recognize what I refer to as 'wrongness'--put simply, its like something that clashes with Christ within me.

One more point---in those experiences I related, there was no doubt whatsoever to me that it was the Lord. That was His Graciousness. This sort of thing didn't and doesn't happen regularly--in fact--rarely and always for a purpose. No ambiguity. No guessing. No playing games in the mind.

In all of these years, I can't think of a single false experience or one in which I had to wonder about--was that the Lord?

This is why I have come to refer to those things as milestones.

Much like a earthly father holding a sons hand while walking along and saying to him---"listen up my son, this is important--you need to get this down--it will help you throughout your life".

When the enemy has attacked me with doubts and I was beaten up because of my failures and unfaithfulness, those times the Lord manifested Himself to me--gave me strength and an anchor of sorts. I have not always been faithful to what He has so mercifully and graciously given me.

I am consdiering sharing something else of a different nature, that may be helpful to readers going through a bad chapter.

[Alive]

All that was meant to convey that most of the time, I am just stumbling along not having a clue. In my fragility, I just have to do my best to trust Him.

I am at best, an unfaithful servant. And yet, He loves me.

[Arial]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I would add something or more. The Lord exposed me to all kinds of folks  in christendom, including a rather large cult-like group with folks from all over the world. There were some wonderful saints there that were taken in by what is referred to by many as an 'authority movement', where members needed to submit to ones who considered themselves as 'apostles'. I saw this taken to extremes. The LOrd also exposed me to deluded leaders who practiced 'soul reading'.

Yes. And the word is often taught by preachers completely wrong but supported by a scripture here and a scripture there. I have a sister still in that type of church and I think she is genuinely saved for she holds to the necessary truths concerning who Jesus is and what He did. Which would mean that God saves and preserves His people even though they may be deceived in some areas. But she said to me once, "If Jesus can do it so can we." She is my sister, so I held my tongue. But that is what comes out of a lot of this type of false teaching. It is never taking into account the whole of scripture. So we have today self-appointed apostles (office of apostle) and self appointed prophets (office of prophet), when those offices do not exist anymore as they fulfilled their purpose in the apostolic era as the church foundation was laid. It is a very dangerous game they play. The congregants often never find why these things are not so from the word because it has already been distorted for them. God help us! Our walls are torn down and out gates are burned with fire. May He set watchmen on the wall, and builders to set the gates and restore the foundation, and soldiers to fight the fights.

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

One more point---in those experiences I related, there was no doubt whatsoever to me that it was the Lord. That was His Graciousness. This sort of thing didn't and doesn't happen regularly--in fact--rarely and always for a purpose. No ambiguity. No guessing. No playing games in the mind.

In all of these years, I can't think of a single false experience or one in which I had to wonder about--was that the Lord?

That is what I believe. If God is doing something in that way, it will be done. There will be no doubt and our feet will move where they need to go. I had to make a critical decision at one point. Whether to continue in my full time job or start my own business. The business of course would involve investment and would be uncertain. But it is my nature to be much more content and satisfied working for myself than for someone else. I prayed about it of course. The only one who knew the way for to go was God. In my head I could just as easily think He said go one way as the other. So in my prayer I told Him I was going to do the pre-emptive work of a business plan and calculations. But I did not know what was the way He wanted me to go. And I ask Him to stop me from going the wrong way. That is the way handled it. "Lead me in the path that I should go." Any number of things could have stopped me and I would have had peace with that. But nothing did stop me and the business opened, and was a success from day one. 

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

When the enemy has attacked me with doubts and I was beaten up because of my failures and unfaithfulness, those times the Lord manifested Himself to me--gave me strength and an anchor of sorts. I have not always been faithful to what He has so mercifully and graciously given me.

Amen to that. There are many things I have had to learn again and again and often by remembering the former things. Hey! It is like God instructed the Israelites. Keep these things before you and before your children day and night. And the times an OT saint said things like., "I remember the days of old when You---. And my heart is strengthened or leads to praise."

[Alive]

Yup---what I have seen over the years is that eventually the true saints see through the deceit, but that doesn't mean they haven't been harmed--devastated even. I fear for those men. One in particular I knew very well for many years.

And I know several who were and remain devastated.

I think Jesus was serious when He mentioned a millstone.

Matt. 18:6 (NAS20S) but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depths of the sea.

[Arial]

The Dream

I lived in Iowa at the time near a small town and attended a church there. A very small church and charismatic. It was a friendly place and I developed some really good friends there. 

One night I had this dream, that ran like a movie, in a straight line, and made sense, which is rare, at least for me. I rarely remember my dreams, but this one, not one part of it has ever been lost from my memory.

It took place in the days of covered wagons and the westward movement. The caravan of wagons was traveling through snow and a very bad snow storm. The wagon master was the pastor of that church I attended, and the people were all people in that church.

The wagon master called us to a halt and pointed off to the sides into the trees (we were in the mountains) and there were wolves lurking there and watching us. Great fear went up among the people and the wagon master. I was not afraid. Everyone was afraid to do anything because it was as though if we moved or tried any form of defense, we would be attacked and destroyed.

I kept waiting for the one who was supposed to protect us to do something but he was petrified. So I began walking towards the wolves and everybody hollard for me to stop. I would be the death of them all. But I kept walking towards them. They snarled and threatened and I kept moving forward. I knew I had the armor of God and I had no fear. I couldn't understand why no one else knew we could do this. When I was right next to them I said, "Get out of here. You can't have us." And they vanished.

I do not know what all this means. I do know that when I head those first chapters of Nehemiah, and every time I read it; the earnest prayer of Nehemiah weeping over Jerusalem, "Our walls are broken down and our gates are burned with fire." that dream comes to mind.

As does the rest of that book, the taunting by the enemy as the walls were being rebuilt and the systematic rebuilding continuing by section, with watchmen on the wall, the rallying cry when the fight came to them, the gathering of the people to fight.

And I know too that defending the faith is a deep need in me and at least partial equipping through me doing the work of leaning the word and the Spirits teaching me from it. And maybe the call on me of that dream is to prayer for the precious church of our Lord and its purity and unity.
 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Arial