Is Jesus Christ a Man or God.

[EricH]

Moved this to the doctrinal forum from chatter discussions

[Guest mtoneil]

Jesus is God who became man and died sinless to offer atonement for our sins.

Philippians 2:5-11 (Amplified)

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, although being essentially one with God

and

in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped

or

retained.

7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men

and

was born a human being.

8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased

and

humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name.

10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heave and on earth and under the earth.

11 And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess

and

acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NAS)

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Actually, most all modern translations read: "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not..." for verse 6. Scholars generally agree that the exact theological meaning of this passage is actually rather ambiguous, given that hardly any translations agree precisely. [EDITED from previous post to make correction]

It is well known by scholars that Jesus was not always considered divine, and when he was, certainly not by everyone. For instance some early groups of Jewish-Christians in Palestine and Syria considered Jesus fully human. The author of Mark, who likely wrote in Syria-Palestine, probably agreed with this. In Mk 1:11, after Jesus' baptism by John, God delivers him a personal message stating, "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased" (NRSV). But this line actually paraphrases Psalm 2, which reads: "You are my son,... this day I become your father" (Ps. 2:7). This is a Psalm that was sung at a coronation of a monarch -- when God adopted a new king. Considering also the fact that Mark says nothing about (and probably knows nothing of) the virginal birth, scholars generally believe Jesus became God's son according to Mark by adoption, equivalent to a Davidic king being annointed with oil. How could Mark have believed Jesus to be God if he was only his son through adoption?

The necessity of the Council of Nicea is proof enough that some Christians for 200 years after Jesus' death still did not believe in his divinity. If those Christians, including 3 of the 4 Gospel writers themselves, did not believe Jesus to be God, I can't imagine God punishing me for having the same belief.

Edited November 10, 2005 by mtoneil

[ayin jade]

Punishment would be for your sins. The reprieve from that punishment comes from your belief in Jesus and who He is to you.

[Guest mtoneil]

Understood, but to me the difference is extremely little. You and I can commit the exact same acts in life, and both be equally sorry and good otherwise, but by your belief in Jesus you have eternal life and I have eternal death/punishment. So really belief in Jesus is the ultimate decider. And, like I said, if early Christians did not believe in Jesus' divinity, I cannot be expected to believe either. As such, it is my belief that God feels the same.

[Guest A New Name]

Dear mtoneil:

Not sure where you're getting your incorrect information about the gospel writers, but it is evident that you need to start here:

"Who do you think that I am?"

With that brief question Jesus Christ confronted His followers with the most important issue they would ever face. He had spent much time with them and made some bold claims about His identity and authority. Now the time had come for them either to believe or deny His teachings.

Who do you say Jesus is? Your response to Him will determine not only your values and lifestyle, but your eternal destiny as well. Consider what the Bible says about Him

JESUS IS GOD

While Jesus was on earth there was much confusion about who He was. Some thought He was a wise man or a great prophet. Others thought He was a madman. Still others couldn't decide or didn't care. But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.

Many people today don't understand that Jesus claimed to be God. They're content to think of Him as little more than a great moral teacher. But even His enemies understood His claims to deity. That's why they tried to stone Him to death (John 5:18; 10:33) and eventually had Him crucified (John 19:7).

C.S. Lewis observed, "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to" (Mere Christianity [Macmillan, 1952], pp. 40-41).

If the biblical claims of Jesus are true, He is God!

JESUS IS HOLY

God is absolutely and perfectly holy (Isaiah 6:3), therefore He cannot commit or approve of evil (James 1:13).

As God, Jesus embodied every element of God's character. Colossians 2:9 says, "In Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." He was perfectly holy (Hebrews 4:15). Even His enemies couldn't prove any accusation against Him (John 8:46)

God requires holiness of us as well. First Peter 1:16 says, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR

Our failure to obey God--to be holy--places us in danger of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The truth is, we cannot obey Him because we have neither the desire nor the ability to do so. We are by nature rebellious toward God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Bible calls our rebellion "sin." According to Scripture, everyone is guilty of sin: "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46). "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And we are incapable of changing our sinful condition. Jeremiah 13:23 says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

That doesn't mean we're incapable of performing acts of human kindness. We might even be involved in various religious or humanitarian activities. But we're utterly incapable of understanding, loving, or pleasing God on our own. The Bible says, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one" (Romans 3:10-12).

God's holiness and justice demand that all sin be punished by death: "The soul who sins will die" (Ezekiel 18:4). That's hard for us to understand because we tend to evaluate sin on a relative scale, assuming some sins are less serious than others. However, the Bible teaches that all acts of sin are the result of sinful thinking and evil desires. That's why simply changing our patterns of behavior can't solve our sin problem or eliminate its consequences. We need to be changed inwardly so our thinking and desires are holy

Jesus is the only one who can forgive and transform us, thereby delivering us from the power and penalty of sin: "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior, who paid the penalty and died for sinners: "Christ ... died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26). John 3:16 says, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." He alone is "our great God and Savior" (Titus 2:13).

JESUS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OBJECT OF SAVING FAITH

Some people think it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. But without a valid object your faith is useless

If you take poison--thinking it's medicine--all the faith in the world won't restore your life. Similarly, if Jesus is the only source of salvation, and you're trusting in anyone or anything else for your salvation, your faith is useless.

Many people assume there are many paths to God and that each religion represents an aspect of truth. But Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). He didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God--then and forever.

JESUS IS LORD

Contemporary thinking says man is the product of evolution. But the Bible says we were created by a personal God to love, serve, and enjoy endless fellowship with Him

The New Testament reveals it was Jesus Himself who created everything (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Therefore He also owns and rules everything (Psalm 103:19). That means He has authority over our lives and we owe Him absolute allegiance, obedience, and worship.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority (Philippians 2:10-11). Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son (Romans 1:4; Acts 17:30-31).

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness (Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

JESUS IS THE JUDGE

All who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior will one day face Him as their Judge: "God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

HOW WILL YOU RESPOND?

Who does the Bible say Jesus is? The living God, the Holy One, the Savior, the only valid object of saving faith, the sovereign Lord, and the righteous Judge.

Who do you say Jesus is? That is the inescapable question. He alone can redeem you--free you from the power and penalty of sin. He alone can transform you, restore you to fellowship with God, and give your life eternal purpose. Will you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

Grace to You—Copyright

We are happy to grant you permission to mirror or copy Grace to You's tract "Who Do You Think I Am?" to your home page(s) with the following stipulations:

We ask that you include a credit line at the bottom of each copy, saying:

[felix]

Greetings brothers and sisters.

Jesus was fully man and fully God. The reason Jesus had to be fully God and fully man was because there was no way for man to reach God. God dwells in unapprocable light. The only way for man to reach God was if God himself became man. Jesus was a bridge to bring man to God.

man (100% humanity) ----------------- Jesus (100% humanity, 100% divinity) ---------------------------------God (100% divinity)

Sorta like dominoes. (doh...the dominoe thing isnt working when I post it...just try to see it)

Felix Jesus God

some number|Humanity Humanity|Divinity Divinity|some number

That is why Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through ME."(John 14:6) Jesus was designated the firstborn son so that he may have many brothers...US! We were made Sons of God through Jesus Christ...His Spirit. YOu see......even the demons knew that Jesus was God. However the demons would not admit that Jesus (God) had come in the flesh.

1 John 4:2

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Without Jesus, there would have been no way for me to touch divinity. But now I have divinity in me...it's mingled together with my humane spirit.

Mtoneil,

You say, "Jesus was not always considered divine..." implying that maybe Jesus wasn't divine. You got the wrong idea. Jesus's divinity and humanity were mingled together. Take for instance a mix of salt and pepper. You can't say the mix is not always salty as you are saying Jesus was not always divine. The mix is both 100% salty and 100% pepper(ey). In your view, how can some parts of scripture talk about Jesus's divinity and some parts about his humanity...and then it must be an either or??? To you its...either Jesus is divine or he's not. Wrong idea...the scripture speaks of Christ in this way because he was both! That can only be the way to explain. Do you agree? BTW, God wouldn't be punishing you for your belief that Jesus is not God but only that you cannot experience what God wants to give you. There will always be veils as long as you can't see that Jesus was God who came in the flesh.

Edited November 10, 2005 by felix

[Guest mtoneil]

To A New Name:

My argument was that early Christians did not even believe that Jesus was divine. Your post did not address this at all, so there is really nothing for me to respond to.

Mtoneil,

You say, "Jesus was not always considered divine..." implying that maybe Jesus wasn't divine. You got the wrong idea. Jesus's divinity and humanity were mingled together. Take for instance a mix of salt and pepper. You can't say the mix is not always salty as you are saying Jesus was not always divine. The mix is both 100% salty and 100% pepper(ey). In your view, how can some parts of scripture talk about Jesus's divinity and some parts about his humanity...and then it must be an either or??? To you its...either Jesus is divine or he's not. Wrong idea...the scripture speaks of Christ in this way because he was both! That can only be the way to explain. Do you agree? BTW, God wouldn't be punishing you for your belief that Jesus is not God but only that you cannot experience what God wants to give you. There will always be veils as long as you can't see that Jesus was God who came in the flesh.

I am not implying that Jesus wasn't divine. I am stating outright that Jesus' earliest followers probably didn't believe in Jesus' divinity, as is evidenced by Matthew, Mark and Luke's complete silence on the matter, as well as some statements to the contrary.

Can you cite any passages from Mark, Matthew, or Luke tending to the belief that Jesus is God? Please answer this question with specific passages.

Now, can you cite any from John? Of course you can. And that's because the Jesus of John is so different from Mark, Matthew, and Luke that all 4 cannot by any possibility be true. Only in John does Jesus claim to be God. And in the other 3 it is actually implied on several occasions that he is not God. The VAST majority of serious biblical scholars acknowledge that many, if not most, of the sayings attributed to Jesus in John are likely not historical.

Go and read Matthew, Mark and Luke. Read them over several times. Really think about them long and hard. Think about the general order of events. Think about the way Jesus speaks and teaches. Think about the themes that are emphasized. Then go and read John, and do the same analysis. You will find, if you are at least a minimally observant reader, that the Jesus of Matt Mark and Luke is so completely different from John that both cannot be historically accurate.

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke we are told that God will be forgiving to the forgiving, kind to the kind, merciful to merciful, etc. We are told essentially that God will treat us as we treat others. Nothing is even hinted at as to the necessity of believing in Jesus. But then read John, and you will read a completely different doctrine. One that is completely incompatible with the beliefs of the Synoptic evangelists.

[dgolvach]

I have doubts but deep down I know that Jesus is the creator and all-mighty. His words ring too much and he spoke with the authority of a creator. If hes not God, he is the biggest hoaxter that ever existed. Some one once said that Jesus was either a lier, lunatic or lord. C.S. Lewis maybe? I agree.

Dan

[Guest mtoneil]

I have doubts but deep down I know that Jesus is the creator and all-mighty. His words ring too much and he spoke with the authority of a creator. If hes not God, he is the biggest hoaxter that ever existed. Some one once said that Jesus was either a lier, lunatic or lord. C.S. Lewis maybe? I agree.

Dan

dgolvach:

C.S. Lewis did make such a statement, but his statement assumes that the New Testament is true in its entirety; that Jesus really said all those things attributed to him in the Gospels. But remember, Jesus did not write the Gospels, so we can't know for sure whether Jesus is a liar or not, since we don't really know if Jesus actually said the things the Gospels say he did.

Let's say I write a book about you, dgolvach, after you die. And I quote you as saying, "I like the Yankees." People could say, "Oh that dgolvach either liked the Yankees, or he was a liar." But notice, you never told me you like the Yankees. In fact, you might even hate the Yankees! So would the conclusion people reached about you (either a Yankee-liker or a liar) be accurate? What about the third possibility....that you never said such a thing? At least certainly not to me. Now given the fact that the Gospels were all written anonymously, and probably by people who were NOT eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry or even contemporaries of Jesus (the first was written almost 40 years after his death), is it really fair and realistic to think that Jesus said EVERYTHING attributed to him in the Gospels?

Liar, Lunatic, Lord .... or partly madeup?

I am not arguing that all of the New Testament is made-up balogny, but what I am arguing is that Jesus probably didn't actually say some of what was attributed to him in the Gospels. Particularly, I am referring to the Gospel of John. Dgolvach, try to do as I told another member of this forum in my earlier post, where I asked him/her to go read the Synoptics (Mt, Mk, and Lk), and then read John. Think about the philosophy of Jesus in each, and you will realize that both cannot possibly be the authentic words of Jesus' message. And, since John is outnumbered 3-to-1, this is why most scholars believe the historical Jesus can be found in the Synoptics instead. Why is this important to this thread? Because only in John do you find the belief that Jesus is God. You cannot find it in the other three gospels, and the reason is simple: the communities they were written in simply didn't believe it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Because only in John do you find the belief that Jesus is God. You cannot find it in the other three gospels, and the reason is simple: the communities they were written in simply didn't believe it.

You could not be more wrong. Even the synoptic Gospels we find Jesus Deity displayed for us.

And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

(Luke 5:20-24)

In the synoptics, Jesus received worship which He claimed was only to be reserved for God:

Matt. 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 28:9, 28:17; Mark 5:6; Luke 24:62; John 9:38. Worshipping ANYONE other than God is idolatry. Jesus himself also declared that ONLY God was to be worshipped:

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

(Matthew 4:10)

Not one person who worshipped Jesus was rebuked for doing so. 10 times, Jesus gladly and appropriately received all the worship given to Him.

We find the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence,and omnipotence being ascribed to Jesus not only in the snyoptics but elsewhere in the New Testament as well: Omnscience - Matthew 12:25, 27:18; Luke 6:8; John 2:24-25; 21:17; Revelation 2:23 Omnipresence - Matthew 18:20; Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Revelation 2:1; Revelation 3:20 Omnipotence - Ephesians 3:20; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 2:10; Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 1:8; Revelation 2:26-27

Please my study here on WBs regarding the Deity of Jesus. People who make claims that only the Gospel of John point to Jesus' Deity do not understand the Bible. Both the Old and New Testaments declare that Jesus was and is God. You cannot narrow your perspective to one book out of the Bible.

Here is the link to the study>>> A Biblical Understanding of Jesus' Deity

Understood, but to me the difference is extremely little. You and I can commit the exact same acts in life, and both be equally sorry and good otherwise, but by your belief in Jesus you have eternal life and I have eternal death/punishment. So really belief in Jesus is the ultimate decider. And, like I said, if early Christians did not believe in Jesus' divinity, I cannot be expected to believe either. As such, it is my belief that God feels the same.

I am sorry, but you really don't understand what the early believers thought. Your inability to see Jesus Divinity displayed in the synoptics demonstrates that you are not accurate in your assessment of what the early believers thought about Jesus.

The VAST majority of serious biblical scholars acknowledge that many, if not most, of the sayings attributed to Jesus in John are likely not historical.

That depends on if you are talking about biblical scholars or biblical scholars who are Christians. Usually people make those determinations based upon their own bias and not upon genuine manuscript evidence. I would like to see the actual, genuine manuscript evidence that demonstrates that most of what Jesus said made up. Edited November 10, 2005 by shiloh357