Is Jesus Christ a Man or God.

[hebrews_beauty]

Jesus was fully God and fully man, the incarnate Deity. This is what Christians believe.

[Guest jrh]

Well jrh, you need to study your Bible better, because you are completely out in left field. Let's look at the Scriptures you used and see the way you mishandled them.

Col 1:15,16completely contradicts what you are trying to prove. First of all, it refers to Jesus as the firstborn of all creation. As it is used here, it refers to rank. It is not saying that Jesus is the first creature created. It is a term that denotes rank in creation. He has the rank of first born. The Bible clearly says in Genesis that God created the universe. But in this passage we see that Jesus is said to be the one who is the agent of creation. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Col 1:15,16 [Jesus]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him

It looks like you are doing the 'mishandling' here, read the scripture like it is: 'the-first-born-of-all-creation'. Out of all things that have been created; Jesus was the firstborn. If I have three kids that my wife and I have created; Tom, Dick, & Harry...and I say that Tom is the firstborn of my creation; does that mean that Tom wasn't created? Of course not! Tom is the firstborn of my creation.

And Yes, it does say in Genesis that God created the universe...if you carefully analyzed Col 1:16 it says in this verse that 'all things have been created through him, and for him. God created everything "through" Jesus and for "Jesus". If a General Contractor builds or 'creates' a skyscraper, he doesn't build it himself....he builds the skyscraper "through" other people.

Prov 8:22,23 is talking about the wisdom of God. The writer is portraying wisdom in the feminine sense. There is no credible reference to Jesus being made here. You are trying to pencil this in as a reference to Jesus, but such a reference is unwarranted and does not fit the context of the passage. You need to stick to Scriptures that make clear references to Jesus, and stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage.

Pro 8:22,23 The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began.

Jesus IS wisdom personified. No credible reference? Again if you examine these scriptures, you see that "me" was created, and "was formed", this cannot be just talking about wisdom...if that were true then at one time in history, Almighty God did not have any wisdom!! Think about it...that makes no sense at all; so to quote you, "stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage".

Later on in verses 30,31 it reads, "Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men."

What is more likely: that Jesus is "beside" God, or 'wisdom' is "beside" God? That Jesus is "rejoicing always before" God, or 'wisdom' is "rejoicing" ? According to the first scriptures in this post, Col 1:15,16 After Jesus was created by God, all things were created though Jesus and for Jesus. Thus, here in Proverbs we read that this "master craftsmen" (which fittingly would describe Jesus if God used him to create everything in the universe) was God's "daily delight", and since we were created for Jesus, it certaintly makes sense that Jesus "delight was with the sons of men."

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Rev. 3:14 - Same as in Colossians 1. To call Jesus "the beginning of the creation of God" simply refers to Jesus as the agent of creation and that he holds the primacy over all created things.

Interesting interpretation, ...but when I read that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God"; to me that means that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God". Maybe I should read it over and over again, until I reach a different conclusion? To quote you again, "stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage."

Jesus Himself was never created, and could not as creator.

The Bible clearly says that Jesus was the first creation. You said "and could not as creator"; Is it not possible for God to create a Son that he gave the ability to create other things?

Since God created the universe, and Jesus is created the universe according to Paul in Col 1, then it would be impossible for Jesus as God to be both creator and creature at the same time.

Again, ...if you read that verse, it says that God created things "through" Jesus.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

Deut. 6:4 This is a not a reference so much to His unity, but simply saying that He is the only "Jehovah" To Him alone does the name "Jehovah" rightfully belong.

What about this one then,

Zech 14:9 And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be one, and his name one.

Here it says, that not only is His name 'one', but He is "one"...Why doesn't this read, 'And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be three, and his name one'?

I have to go right now, I'm starving & my retriever is due for a bathroom break....I'll be back in a little while to respond to some more of your replies.

Although I won't be responding to comments like these

Jesus is 100% God & 100% Man !!!

lol at least throw something from the Bible in there!

Edited December 22, 2005 by jrh

[apothanein kerdos]

Col 1:15,16 [Jesus]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him

It looks like you are doing the 'mishandling' here, read the scripture like it is: 'the-first-born-of-all-creation'. Out of all things that have been created; Jesus was the firstborn. If I have three kids that my wife and I have created; Tom, Dick, & Harry...and I say that Tom is the firstborn of my creation; does that mean that Tom wasn't created? Of course not! Tom is the firstborn of my creation.

This is an oversimplified interpretation of the passage. The purpose of Paul using the "firstborn" analogy was not to make a theological point that Jesus was created (as shown later on in the passage, when he calls Jesus God, this would make no sense) but instead to show that Jesus had rule over all of creation. He did this because both Greeks and Jews. To further this point, the Greek word used here (prototokos) is meant to show superiority and not literally an order of creation. If Paul wanted to suggest that Jesus was in fact created first among all he would have used the Greek word protoktisis. This is where we get our word "prototype", to reference something that is the first creation in a long line of production. However, the other word is used to describe Jesus, which means the word prototokos is in reference to Jesus' supeirority and not His order in creation.

And Yes, it does say in Genesis that God created the universe...if you carefully analyzed Col 1:16 it says in this verse that 'all things have been created through him, and for him. God created everything "through" Jesus and for "Jesus". If a General Contractor builds or 'creates' a skyscraper, he doesn't build it himself....he builds the skyscraper "through" other people.

Actually, this passage means that Jesus brought all things into existence and sustains them in their existence. If Jesus is truly created then He cannot sustain Himself. Even if you avoid this point, we must look to the fact that if He is created then His power is recieved solely from God, meaning that Jesus isn't in fact the one that sustains life but instead God. If this is the case, why would Paul ignore this?

Pro 8:22,23 The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began.

Jesus IS wisdom personified. No credible reference? Again if you examine these scriptures, you see that "me" was created, and "was formed", this cannot be just talking about wisdom...if that were true then at one time in history, Almighty God did not have any wisdom!! Think about it...that makes no sense at all; so to quote you, "stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage".

Ah, when Western minds attempt to interpret Eastern passages. In the Eastern paradigm personification is quite normal. In the Western world we have lost this or often think it silly because it doesn't fit within the logical realm of Western thinking. Such as with Animal Farm, most consider it silly not because of the concepts, but because it's impossible for animals to talk. Yet this is an example of personification. This is what is occuring within Proverbs, the personification of Wisdom. If "wisdom" here refers to Christ, then all passages in proverbs refering to wisdom must likewise be interpreted as "Christ." THe personification is completed when we see that "wisdom" is refered to in the feminine form, something that makes no sense if the writer was discussing the comming Messiah.

Later on in verses 30,31 it reads, "Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men."

What is more likely: that Jesus is "beside" God, or 'wisdom' is "beside" God? That Jesus is "rejoicing always before" God, or 'wisdom' is "rejoicing" ? According to the first scriptures in this post, Col 1:15,16 After Jesus was created by God, all things were created though Jesus and for Jesus. Thus, here in Proverbs we read that this "master cratsmen" (which fittingly would describe Jesus if God used him to create everything in the universe) was God's "daily delight", and since we were created for Jesus, it certaintly makes sense that Jesus "delight was with the sons of men."

The same response above stands to reason here. The writer has personified wisdom. Seeing as how Jesus is called the "Word" (John 1:1, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...) and not wisdom (though wisdom is found in Him), it's a giant logical leap to compare Jesus to wisdom. To add to this, the reason we see the personification of wisdom is to show that it was with God prior to creation. This defeated some pagan (Babylonian beliefs and surrounding ones) that wisdom could be evil because it was created by men and not by God (or gods). The writer is dispelling this myth by showing wisdom was created by God and used by God prior to man existing.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

QUOTE

Rev. 3:14 - Same as in Colossians 1. To call Jesus "the beginning of the creation of God" simply refers to Jesus as the agent of creation and that he holds the primacy over all created things.

Interesting interpretation, ...but when I read that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God"; to me that means that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God". Maybe I should read it over and over again, until I reach a different conclusion? To quote you again, "stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage."

This is a loose translation and interpretation on your part. The Greek word here (arche), when used in context, is refering to a magistrate, that is, ruler of Creation. It does not nessecitate that Jesus is the beginning, in that He is the first created, but instead that He is the Head of creation.

The Bible clearly says that Jesus was the first creation. You said "and could not as creator"; Is it not possible for God to create a Son that he gave the ability to create other things?

According to Exodus 20:4-5, created things (both material and immaterial) are not to be worshiped. Yet Jesus is worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6). Thus, if God created Jesus, He subsequently goes on to violate His own command. The other problem with this is that God, being so powerful, cannot be seen by fallen man. Yet, man saw God in the Garden after being fallen. If they saw God, but no man can see the true essence of God, then who did they truly see? Likewise, Moses talked with God face to face, but also wanted to see the true essence of God. He could not see the true face of God, yet still talked to Him in human form. Now, how did this happen?

What about this one then,

Zech 14:9 And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be one, and his name one.

Here it says, that not only is His name 'one', but He is "one"...Why doesn't this read, 'And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be three, and his name one'?

This means that His name (Hayah, I AM which actually refers to the trinity by its own nature of word construction) shall be the only one worshipped.

[BlindSeeker]

Can you cite any passages from Mark, Matthew, or Luke tending to the belief that Jesus is God? Please answer this question with specific passages.

Sure can

Luke 1:68

"Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.

Seems pretty clear to me...

Mark 14:62

"I am," said Jesus...

Exodus 3:14-15 states, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, "The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you." This is My name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations." God says His name is "I AM," and that will be His name forever, seems pretty obvious to me Mark thought Jesus was God...

Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[Guest jrh]

Ok, I'm back.....

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

I don't see where the problem is here, really. God is the God of Christ when we are speaking about Christ as man. He is also the Father of Christ when speaking about Christ as God. Jesus is both 100% man and 100% God, so there is no problem here. It does not support your position at all.

The problem here is that the whole 100% God and 100% man thing is completely unscriptual. According to the scriptures Jesus has a God; how can God have a God? Does the Holy Ghost have a God? Does YHWH, Almighty God have a God? Why was it like 300 years after Jesus died, that a group of people got together, ...decided that Jesus was in fact equal to God---despite Jesus' own words, "the Father is greater than I"(John 14:28).

From the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

[apothanein kerdos]

Ok, I'm back.....

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

I don't see where the problem is here, really. God is the God of Christ when we are speaking about Christ as man. He is also the Father of Christ when speaking about Christ as God. Jesus is both 100% man and 100% God, so there is no problem here. It does not support your position at all.

The problem here is that the whole 100% God and 100% man thing is completely unscriptual. According to the scriptures Jesus has a God; how can God have a God? Does the Holy Ghost have a God? Does YHWH, Almighty God have a God? Why was it like 300 years after Jesus died, that a group of people got together, ...decided that Jesus was in fact equal to God---despite Jesus' own words, "the Father is greater than I"(John 14:28).

From the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

[MrSealedEternal]

I would like to add these additional verses and thoughts for your further consideration when scrutinizing the triunity of God.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them."

Genesis 1:26 & 27

Please note the plurality. God talking amongst Himself about making man in His image.

Anyone else here ever talk to themselves? OK, back to the scriptures.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Thessalonians 5:23

Please note the three parts of man, made in God's image.

God and man are triune beings.

In this dimension I can see your body, but your soul and spirit are invisible. Nevertheless, they are all representative of you. I would also like to add the thought that the spirit and soul of man is separated from the body when it dies. When we go to a funeral, and we see the body laying in the casket, we know that the soul and the spirit have departed from the body.

Yet, notice the eternal nature of man.

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

So, although you have undergone death, you have not ceased to exist.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"...And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Matthew 27:46 & 50

Ever hear the story about the Mr. Stickman and Mrs. Stickman drawing on paper? One day God sticks his finger in their dimensions and Mr. Stickman sees it. Then later God sticks four fingers in their dimensions and Mrs. Stickman sees it. Mr. Stickman says God looks like a circle and Mrs. Stickman says he looks like four circles. Although they have seen God, they can only see Him in their dimensions and the parts which He has shown them, but neither of them really understands what God looks like, nor can they fully comprehend Him, being limited to the dimensions of their existence and what may be gleaned from that.

And then they argue about it until the Lord returns. But all joking aside...

When God appeared in the flesh, He was 100% God and 100% Man. Immanuel~God with us.

"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

This 100% man, Jesus, who was 100% God, gave His body and blood for many for the forgiveness of sins. See Matthew 26:26-29

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 6:46

Like I pointed out earlier, I can see you, your body, but I cannot see you, your invisible soul and spirit.

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12

Please note the word of God piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit.

"Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." John 6:61b-64a

"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24

God is 100% spirit.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. Triune. God is Three in One.

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:5-8

I suspect you might be a taught JW. I was brought up with the exact teaching you are advocating here, and it is deadly false.

Spiritually dead.

FLEE FAR FROM IT. THE FACTS AS YOU ARE APPLYING THEM ARE NOT ADDING UP TO EQUAL TRUTH.

I hope and pray this weighs on your conscience until you can understand the truth and make sense of the contradictions in your mind.

"In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in Me, and I in you."John 14:20

God Bless you & Glory be to God,

Mrs. SE

Edited December 22, 2005 by Mr*MrsSealedEternal

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Dec 21 2005, 08:21 AM)

Well jrh, you need to study your Bible better, because you are completely out in left field. Let's look at the Scriptures you used and see the way you mishandled them.

Col 1:15,16completely contradicts what you are trying to prove. First of all, it refers to Jesus as the firstborn of all creation. As it is used here, it refers to rank. It is not saying that Jesus is the first creature created. It is a term that denotes rank in creation. He has the rank of first born. The Bible clearly says in Genesis that God created the universe. But in this passage we see that Jesus is said to be the one who is the agent of creation. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Col 1:15,16 [Jesus]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him

It looks like you are doing the 'mishandling' here, read the scripture like it is: 'the-first-born-of-all-creation'. Out of all things that have been created; Jesus was the firstborn. If I have three kids that my wife and I have created; Tom, Dick, & Harry...and I say that Tom is the firstborn of my creation; does that mean that Tom wasn't created? Of course not! Tom is the firstborn of my creation.

And Yes, it does say in Genesis that God created the universe...if you carefully analyzed Col 1:16 it says in this verse that 'all things have been created through him, and for him. God created everything "through" Jesus and for "Jesus". If a General Contractor builds or 'creates' a skyscraper, he doesn't build it himself....he builds the skyscraper "through" other people.

Well the problem is that you really DON'T read the Scripture "like it is." In fact, you completely butcher the Bible with your face-value approach. The Bible says in v. 16 that all things were created by Him and for Him. Again, if you bother to check the Greek, Paul is using "first born" as a title, not a reference to order in creation. He is not saying that Jesus was created or "born." He is saying that Jesus is the "Head or Chief" of Creation. Jesus is the "Boss," so to speak. Jesus, as the creator is the Chief of His creation. Jesus is the agent of Creation. God created the universe through Christ, but that does not mean that Christ is not God. In fact, John 1:1-3 refutes the notion that Jesus was not pre-existant and that Jesus is not God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

(John 1:1-3) All things were made by Jesus, who is the Word of God, and who is also God, according to John. From the Old Testament to Revelation, Jesus is God according to the Bible.

The skyscraper analogy is silly. Jesus is not a hired hand. The relationship between the Father and Jesus is not like a Contractor and a carpenter. Try finding an analogy that actually fits the scenario.

QUOTE

Rev. 3:14 - Same as in Colossians 1. To call Jesus "the beginning of the creation of God" simply refers to Jesus as the agent of creation and that he holds the primacy over all created things.

Interesting interpretation, ...but when I read that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God"; to me that means that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God". Maybe I should read it over and over again, until I reach a different conclusion? To quote you again, "stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage."

You know what??? It doesn't matter at all what it means to YOU. What matters is what it means to the author and your job as the reader is to determine what the author meant and then understand it in light of that. We call that "exegesis." It means "to lead out." We are supposed to use proper hermeneutic techniques to lead out the meaning that the author is conveying, and not read into it what we want it to say. That is what you are doing. You are reading it in light of what you want it to mean to you.

The term "beginning" of creation hē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou It again, is used as a Title. If John had written this in Hebrew, it would have read the same way. archē would be translated as "rosh" in Hebrew. It means "head" or "chief." The concept is that of being the orginating source. That would be the Hebrew equivalent of what is being communicated by John, who BTW is Jewish. If the concept was that the Jesus was the first of creation, the Greek would be equivalent to the Hebrew word "Reisheet" which means first. But John avoids using that concept. You are taking a simplistic face-value approach, and in doing so you are missing what the Scriptures are really saying.

QUOTE

Since God created the universe, and Jesus is created the universe according to Paul in Col 1, then it would be impossible for Jesus as God to be both creator and creature at the same time.

Again, ...if you read that verse, it says that God created things "through" Jesus.

yes, but it does not say that Jesus was created by God, at least not when you apply sound hermeneutics to the passage. The only way you can support your position is with sloppy, simplistic, face-value interpretation. When studied objectively, the Bible nowhere claims that Jesus is a created being.

All of your remarks were more than adequately addressed by Aptohnein Kerdos. Just thought I would throw a few thoughts out myself.

So do you also reject Jesus as the Messiah? The Savior?

[EricH]

Col 1:15,16 [Jesus]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him

It looks like you are doing the 'mishandling' here, read the scripture like it is: 'the-first-born-of-all-creation'. Out of all things that have been created; Jesus was the firstborn. If I have three kids that my wife and I have created; Tom, Dick, & Harry...and I say that Tom is the firstborn of my creation; does that mean that Tom wasn't created? Of course not! Tom is the firstborn of my creation.

And Yes, it does say in Genesis that God created the universe...if you carefully analyzed Col 1:16 it says in this verse that 'all things have been created through him, and for him. God created everything "through" Jesus and for "Jesus". If a General Contractor builds or 'creates' a skyscraper, he doesn't build it himself....he builds the skyscraper "through" other people.

jrh,

1. There is a logical issue with your position on this verse. You maintain that Jesus was the "first" of God's creation. Soi by very definition He is a created thing (according to you). John 1:3 says this (speaking of Jesus)

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:3 NASB

According to this passage, all created things came into being through Jesus. The problem is that if He is a created being, He could not have been "self-created".

2. There is also an issue in the greek with your interpretation of Colossians 1:15-16

Colossians 1:15 says this:

And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

Colossians 1:15 NASB

The greek word used for "first-born" is prototokos. It can mean either the first born in the family, or the person of preeminent rank. It is used that way in Psalm 89:27

I also shall make him My first-born, The highest of the kings of the earth.

Psalm 89:27 NASB

In this passage the term first-born is used to describe a position of authority. God will make the Davidic King the first-born in the sense that He will be the highest of the kings in the earth. If Paul would have wanted to speak about Jesus being created first, he would have used prototkistos (created first) or protoplastos (formed first). His use of the term first-born mitigates against your interpretation

Colossians 1:16-17 says this:

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:16 NASB

Colossians 1:16 explains why Jesus is the first-born. It is not because he was created first. It says He is first-born because:

1. He created all things

2. He is before (supreme over) all things

Clearly, Paul explains in what sense Jesus was the first-born. No place is His creation mentioned. The only reason given in the text is that He created it, thus as creator he has authority over it (as the first born son would have in a family).

[Guest jrh]

There's too much stuff here for me to reply to it all, I can't keep up w/ all of your posts, and am in a huury right now, but I will try and address what I can...

apothanein kerdos, you said the word "prototokos" is used to convey "supeirority and not His order in creation." What about these two scriptues? The same Greek word is used to depict a firstborn son.

Genesis 49:3 Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my strength, Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power.

Deuteronomy 21:17But he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn.

...when you were talking about Col 1:15,16 you said

Actually, this passage means that Jesus brought all things into existence and sustains them in their existence. If Jesus is truly created then He cannot sustain Himself.

I don't understand what you mean here by "sustain himself"....immortality? I don't understanding your point here.....this scripture doesn't say Jesus sustains anything? Created things have to sustain themselves?

When referring to Proverbs ch 8 you said,

this is an example of personification. This is what is occuring within Proverbs, the personification of Wisdom.

I do agree it's an example of personificaion, my original reply stated that I believe Jesus is wisdom personified.

If "wisdom" here refers to Christ, then all passages in proverbs refering to wisdom must likewise be interpreted as "Christ."

What kind of logic is that? If a scriprure is talking about actual sheep(baa baa), later on in the book the word 'sheep' cannot mean anything else? lol

THe personification is completed when we see that "wisdom" is refered to in the feminine form, something that makes no sense if the writer was discussing the comming Messiah.

That's because in Hebrew, the word for wisdom is always in the feminine gender. At 1 John 4:8 where it says "God is love", the word used for love is in the feminine gender, does that mean God is a woman?

When you are speaking of Rev 3:14 you said,

This is a loose translation and interpretation on your part. The Greek word here (arche), when used in context, is refering to a magistrate, that is, ruler of Creation. It does not nessecitate that Jesus is the beginning, in that He is the first created, but instead that He is the Head of creation.

Please show another time that John used the word 'ar-khe' to mean what you say here and not something that had a beginning.

Wow, am I the only one here who doesn't believe that Jesus isn't God? Anyone else out there? I'll try to respond to some more as soon as I can, but I have a busy weekend and might not post again until Monday or Tuesday.

Talk to you soon!