Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

9 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is what the text in Genesis shows that Cain was without sin that his heart was without sin...that he was not born in sin or that he inherited sin from Adam because Adam was a sinner that he had sin that God counted to him eating the forbidden fruit as a sin and from that time forwards God view him as a sinner and he pass this to his children. 

The passage in Genesis 4: with Cain it shows that this is incorrect. It shows that sin was in the world waiting to make his inroads in the heart of Cain. 

That also is telling us that sin was not in the Garden. 

The "Surely die" it was the state Adam got himself into and that what he passed to his children....that's why Abel when he died and he died as righteous man but at the time of his death that's the time "the surely die" can be seen because at death he was separated from God. When he lived he was not seperated from God because he was without sin. He was alive to God while he was living. At death he was separated from God because this was the default human Inheritance for mankind at the time.  

I would have taken what was spoken to Cain in a manner similar to " Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I would have taken what was spoken to Cain in a manner similar to " Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

 

This saying it is good for us as believers who live in this lustfull world. Cain lived in a different world. In the context of the world he was living in. Sining at the world at that time had not returned to righteousness because their was not reconciliation for a man to get rid of his sin. Repentance did not cleansed a man from his sin, nothing could cleansed a man from his sin...everyone who died with sin or without sin would still fail within the default Inheritance for mankind at that time which was total separation from God at death. Later with Abraham we have the introduction of a new Inheritance and with Jesus we have for the first time the Heavenly Inheritance for man. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

26 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This saying it is good for us as believers who live in this lustfull world. Cain lived in a different world. In the context of the world he was living in. Sining at the world at that time had not returned to righteousness because their was not reconciliation for a man to get rid of his sin. Repentance did not cleansed a man from his sin, nothing could cleansed a man from his sin...everyone who died with sin or without sin would still fail within the default Inheritance for mankind at that time which was total separation from God at death. Later with Abraham we have the introduction of a new Inheritance and with Jesus we have for the first time the Heavenly Inheritance for man. 

Before God destroys all flesh with a flood he said

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God speaks of the wickedness of man, and Cain is of the wicked one also

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Because Cain's own works were wicked

You dont believe Cain was fulfilling the lusts of the devil?

For example, Jesus told them, 

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, 
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Cain was of that wicked and murdered his brother

Then upon these would come the blood of righteous Abel onward

Mat 25:23 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

There were those referred to as righteous and wicked at that time also.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Your closest friendnt]

29 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Before God destroys all flesh with a flood he said

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God speaks of the wickedness of man, and Cain is of the wicked one also

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Because Cain's own works were wicked

You dont believe Cain was fulfilling the lusts of the devil?

For example, Jesus told them, 

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, 
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Cain was of that wicked and murdered his brother

Then upon these would come the blood of righteous Abel onward

Mat 25:23 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

There were those referred to as righteous and wicked at that time also.

 

Cain kill his brother and according to what Jesus said he was wicked, he was a murderer he killed Abel in his anger he hit Abel and Abel died, how about if Abel did not died and lived. Cain was not quilty of a premeditated murder, murder in the first degree. He was guilty of manslaughter. He was angry because Abel was accepted and not him. Cain he did not expect that Abel will die. He did not hit Abel with the intent to kill him. He was driven by his anger and not by the Devil, perhaps it was the first time that Cain hit Abel.  What did they say to one another at that time, we do not know...we cannot say that everytime we get angry that the Devil made us do it.

We can do things on our own and also at time the Devil can play a part but not always. 

 Jesus called them wicked because they killed the prophet because they were not in the will of God. 

In that passage Jesus called Abel a righteous man and also Zacharias a righteous man, both of them died righteous and he said that there were righteous people who had died a violent death all over the world. And that was said before the Cross.  

Jesus said your Father is the Devil because some of the things they did thinking that they had obeyed God, that it was not what God wanted them to do.  Jesus was talking to the righteous people under the Law and their Father was Abraham and at death they will be gathered to their Patriarh Abraham. They also called Jesus many names and they said that he was not from God another reason that Jesus called them liars and he called then murderers because in secrecy they plan how to kill them. Jesus was telling them that they followed the Devil and nit God. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

22 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Cain kill his brother and according to what Jesus said he was wicked, he was a murderer he killed Abel in his anger he hit Abel and Abel died, how about if Abel did not died and lived. Cain was not quilty of a premeditated murder, murder in the first degree. He was guilty of manslaughter. He was angry because Abel was accepted and not him. Cain he did not expect that Abel will die. He did not hit Abel with the intent to kill him. He was driven by his anger and not by the Devil, perhaps it was the first time that Cain hit Abel.  What did they say to one another at that time, we do not know...we cannot say that everytime we get angry that the Devil made us do it.

We can do things on our own and also at time the Devil can play a part but not always. 

 Jesus called them wicked because they killed the prophet because they were not in the will of God. 

In that passage Jesus called Abel a righteous man and also Zacharias a righteous man, both of them died righteous and he said that there were righteous people who had died a violent death all over the world. And that was said before the Cross.  

Jesus said your Father is the Devil because some of the things they did thinking that they had obeyed God, that it was not what God wanted them to do.  Jesus was talking to the righteous people under the Law and their Father was Abraham and at death they will be gathered to their Patriarh Abraham. They also called Jesus many names and they said that he was not from God another reason that Jesus called them liars and he called then murderers because in secrecy they plan how to kill them. Jesus was telling them that they followed the Devil and nit God. 

We may not be on the same wave length here on some things, but I will leave off on this back and forth for now. At least it was cordial.

You have a good evening Your Closest Friendnt

[Truswell]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:06 AM, JimmyB said:

The idea that sin was not involved with Eve being produced cannot be true of her production. Eve sinned against God first, so how did she acquire sin if not from Adam?  I believe that Adam had sin from the beginning -- there are two accounts of his creation.  

Genesis 1:26-27, "Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”

God created humankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them,
male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:7, "The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  Genesis 2:27, "So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was asleep, he took part of the man’s side and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

But Eve was created before she sinned, wasn't she.

[Truswell]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:22 PM, Vine Abider said:

Last night I was reading in Watchman Nee's book, "The Glorious Church" and read something I'd not really thought about.  This is regarding how Adam and Eve were a picture of Christ and the church.  A rib was taken out of the first Adam to make his counterpart, Eve.  And we are told in Ephesians by Paul that husbands and wives are a demonstration of Christ and the church. Eve came out of the first Adam and the church came out of the last Adam (Christ - 1 Cor 15:45).

But the point that got me in Nee's writings was this: The picture of God "building a woman" (lit Hebrew of Genesis 2:22) from Adam's rib happens in chapter two, which is before the fall.  Therefore, sin was not involved with Eve being produced.  He goes on to say that the church is produced apart from sin.  That is, Christ's atonement and redemption is so thorough and complete that now the church is produced totally outside the realm of sin.  WOW - interesting thought!

So I'm chewing on what that means and am curious as to others' thoughts . . .

Jesus said: "I will build My church."

"That He might present her to Himself as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Matthew 16:18 & Ephesians 5:27

I think Watchman Nee was spot on.

[kwikphilly]

There are soooo many times throughout Scripture that we are told,no one has ever lived that was without sin EXCEPT Jesus....

Offhand I could think of many such verses and thats probably but a few

Ecc 7:20, Hebrews 4:15,1 John 1:18,1 John 3:5,Romans 3:10,Romsns 3:23,2 Cor 5:21,1 Peter 2:22

[Truswell]

2 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Before God destroys all flesh with a flood he said

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God speaks of the wickedness of man, and Cain is of the wicked one also

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Because Cain's own works were wicked

You dont believe Cain was fulfilling the lusts of the devil?

For example, Jesus told them, 

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, 
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Cain was of that wicked and murdered his brother

Then upon these would come the blood of righteous Abel onward

Mat 25:23 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

There were those referred to as righteous and wicked at that time also.

 

 

Adam and Eve had not sinned at creation.  

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

We may not be on the same wave length here on some things, but I will leave off on this back and forth for now. At least it was cordial.

You have a good evening Your Closest Friendnt

Thank you and good evening. I got something out of it and thank you for the scriptures.