The Revelation of the Latter Days: The New Jerusalem and The Rapture before the end of year 2028

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16  So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

This is the harvest of all the righteous.

Are you saying that the words "swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." is the rapture of the Church?  I have failed to see a resurrection, which must precede the rapture.  Is it OK to add one here for convenience?

 

 

 

'

[JoeCanada]

5 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Are you saying that the words "swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." is the rapture of the Church?  I have failed to see a resurrection, which must precede the rapture.  Is it OK to add one here for convenience?

 

 

 

'

Can there be a rapture without a resurrection?

Not according to Jesus.

Paul tells us in 1 Thes 15:

"For this we say to you "by the Word of the Lord"..... (Paul is telling us that this is from the Lord Himself)... that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord , will NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

Then...

"We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

When we look at the whole council of God and put all the scriptures together, then we get a complete picture. Not every verse has all the details in it.

Rev 14 speaks of the harvest of the earth. Matt 13 tells us that the harvest is the end of the age.

The harvest of the earth in Rev 14 is a complete harvest.... those in the grave and those still alive are gathered. Then those remaining, the tares, are gathered and put into the winepress of the Wrath of God.

So.... it's a complete harvest.

 

 

[Montana Marv]

16 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Can there be a rapture without a resurrection?

Yes.  Those Alive in Christ who go after the Dead in Christ are not resurrected, but ascension takes place.

In Christ Jesus (whether alive or dead), we as N.T. Believers; we have been Crucified with Christ; we have been Buried in his Baptism; and we have been Resurrected in Christ - for we have become a new creation/creature by the work of the Holy Spirit who indwells us.  With water Baptism, we have died to self (Crucified with Christ); we go under (Buried with Christ) and then we come up out of the water (Resurrected with Christ) we have risen to become New.

So the Rapture is not a Resurrection (already taken place in Christ Jesus), But it is an ascension.

Rom 6:3,4,5  - gives the description.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[JoeCanada]

21 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes.  Those Alive in Christ who go after the Dead in Christ are not resurrected, but ascension takes place.

In Christ Jesus (whether alive or dead), we as N.T. Believers; we have been Crucified with Christ; we have been Buried in his Baptism; and we have been Resurrected in Christ - for we have become a new creation/creature by the work of the Holy Spirit who indwells us.  With water Baptism, we have died to self (Crucified with Christ); we go under (Buried with Christ) and then we come up out of the water (Resurrected with Christ) we have risen to become New.

So the Rapture is not a Resurrection (already taken place in Christ Jesus), But it is an ascension.

Rom 6:3,4,5  - gives the description.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I think that the difference between ascension and rapture is this:

If we look at Acts 1  where Jesus 'ascended' into heaven, it was by His will. He wasn't taken or snatched up, which the 'alive in Christ" at the second coming will be by an angel who 'puts in his sickle and reaps' (rev 14)

You conclude: "So the Rapture is not a Resurrection (already taken place in Christ Jesus), But it is an ascension."

I agree that the rapture is not a resurrection. But I disagree that the rapture is an ascension. Jesus was the only One who ascended and that was by His own will. 

Our rapture will be a sudden 'snatching away or 'reaping' or 'seize by force'. (1 Thes 4:17)

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Are you saying that the words "swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." is the rapture of the Church?  I have failed to see a resurrection, which must precede the rapture.  Is it OK to add one here for convenience?

Shalom, seeking the lost.

Actually, that's NOT a good idea! This is too late in the narrative. The sun, moon, and stars event is found in Revelation 6, associated with the breaking of the sixth seal.  This is consistent with Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

However, I believe that there is ample information to conclude that the resurrection occurs just prior to that in the opening of the fifth seal:

Revelation 6:9-17 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened THE FIFTH SEAL, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The words translated as "the souls" in verse 9 is "tas psuchas," and the basic word "psuchee" is defined as this:

5590 psuchee (psuché, psyxē) ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo (psucho); breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay):
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psuchoo (psuchó, psýxō) ψύχω (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo (pneo), which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer (aer), which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
-- wax cold.

And, as said above, these words "exactly correspond respectively" to ...

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

If psuchee "exactly corresponds to" nefesh, then psuchee is more that just a "breath"; it, too, means "a breathing creature."

Thus, a "soul" is "a breathing creature." So, when we read the above verses, we should understand the fifth seal like this:

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened THE FIFTH SEAL, I saw under the altar the breathing creatures of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This implies that this is NOT "a scene from heaven" but is rather a scene upon the earth directly after the resurrection! They are ALIVE AGAIN and TALKING!

[Retrobyter]

49 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes.  Those Alive in Christ who go after the Dead in Christ are not resurrected, but ascension takes place.

In Christ Jesus (whether alive or dead), we as N.T. Believers; we have been Crucified with Christ; we have been Buried in his Baptism; and we have been Resurrected in Christ - for we have become a new creation/creature by the work of the Holy Spirit who indwells us.  With water Baptism, we have died to self (Crucified with Christ); we go under (Buried with Christ) and then we come up out of the water (Resurrected with Christ) we have risen to become New.

So the Rapture is not a Resurrection (already taken place in Christ Jesus), But it is an ascension.

Rom 6:3,4,5  - gives the description.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shalom, Montana Marv.

Don't do that! Don't cheapen the resurrection or water it down! It is an EXACT MOMENT IN THE FUTURE when people LITERALLY COME BACK TO LIFE AGAIN! Don't belittle it saying, "We have been Resurrected in Christ for we have become a new creation/creature by the work of the Holy Spirit who indwells us!" That is NOT RESURRECTION!

Think about it: what did Paul say?

Romans 8:12-23 (KJV)

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest (down payment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 

People FREQUENTLY belittle the coming Resurrection for two reasons:

First, they don't put much stock in a literal resurrection because "we're going to heaven anyway." 

And second, they don't believe that God will establish His Kingdom here on this earth! But, that's with what the MILLENNIUM will coincide! The Messiah will reign for His Father for a thousand years before all His enemies are subdued; THEN, He turns over the Kingdom (the Empire) to His Father that His Father might be "all in all!"
(1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

[Montana Marv]

36 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I agree that the rapture is not a resurrection. But I disagree that the rapture is an ascension. Jesus was the only One who ascended and that was by His own will. 

When Christ ascended, he relocated from earth to the heavens.

With the Rapture we are relocated from earth to the heavens also. He is calling us up by his will.

When looking at the Body of Christ, the Bride, the Church; It is the Father who brings us to his Son.  It is the Father who determines what function we have in this body. It is the Father who is doing all the work to make the Body of Christ into its fully ordained unit.  When this process is completed by the Father, the Bride will be ready for the Bridegroom.  This is why Scripture says "Only the Father knows when the Bridegroom will come."  Not the Son, not the Angels.  It is the Father who is/has selected the Bride for his Son.  This is why it is impossible to put a date for it or tie it to a known event in the Future.  There are no seasons or events, it will happen when it happens.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

45 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I think that the difference between ascension and rapture is this:

If we look at Acts 1  where Jesus 'ascended' into heaven, it was by His will. He wasn't taken or snatched up, which the 'alive in Christ" at the second coming will be by an angel who 'puts in his sickle and reaps' (rev 14)

Shalom, JoeCanada.

One must be VERY CAREFUL when making statements about what the Scriptures do or do not say! Here's Acts 1:

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky") as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky")? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky"), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky")."

Both verse 9 and verse 11 use the PASSIVE voice meaning that the Messiah RECEIVED the action being done to Him! He was indeed raised up by HIS FATHER!

It's also important to understand that "heaven" here means "the sky!" 

The Greek word that was translated as "heaven" is the accusative of "ouranos":

3772 ouranos οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

This word was used FOUR TIMES in Matthew 16:1-4. I challenge you to look at how this ONE WORD was translated in the KJV of THAT passage.

45 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

You conclude: "So the Rapture is not a Resurrection (already taken place in Christ Jesus), But it is an ascension."

I agree that the rapture is not a resurrection. But I disagree that the rapture is an ascension. Jesus was the only One who ascended and that was by His own will. 

Our rapture will be a sudden 'snatching away or 'reaping' or 'seize by force'. (1 Thes 4:17)

So, once again, it was NOT "by His own will." He was TAKEN up by His Father!

[Montana Marv]

21 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Don't do that! Don't cheapen the resurrection or water it down! It is an EXACT MOMENT IN THE FUTURE when people LITERALLY COME BACK TO LIFE AGAIN! Don't belittle it saying, "We have been Resurrected in Christ for we have become a new creation/creature by the work of the Holy Spirit who indwells us!" That is NOT RESURRECTION!

Then Water Baptism is only a symbol of death and burial.  One stays in the water never to come out of it.  Ones head never comes out from below the water. We suffocate.

The Resurrection is for the Dead, not the Living.  We have been Crucified with Christ; we have been Buried in his Baptism, (steps one and two of the symbol of water baptism); Since we have come up out of the Water, we have arose; and all these in Christ Jesus.  Christ later ascended on High.  We have not ascended yet.  The Rapture is a description of the Brides ascension, not a resurrection.  (Both Dead in Christ and those Alive in Christ go up)

Therefore the Resurrection is later.  Who gets resurrected when is what is the issue.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[seeking the lost]

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Can there be a rapture without a resurrection?

Not according to Jesus.

Paul tells us in 1 Thes 15:

"For this we say to you "by the Word of the Lord"..... (Paul is telling us that this is from the Lord Himself)... that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord , will NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

Then...

"We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

When we look at the whole council of God and put all the scriptures together, then we get a complete picture. Not every verse has all the details in it.

Rev 14 speaks of the harvest of the earth. Matt 13 tells us that the harvest is the end of the age.

The harvest of the earth in Rev 14 is a complete harvest.... those in the grave and those still alive are gathered. Then those remaining, the tares, are gathered and put into the winepress of the Wrath of God.

So.... it's a complete harvest.

 

 

This is the very thing that is the most important thing concerning the rapture.  The rapture is dynamically and inextricably connected to the resurrection.  The problem with your interpretation is that the first resurrection does not occur until the end of the tribulation.  This resurrection is limited and not inclusive of any who are not mentioned.  They do not ascend to heaven.  They are raised to reign.  Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The tares have been removed and satan has been bound.  The thousand years begin then shall the righteous shine in the kingdom of the Father.

The rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time that it can be said with certainty that the dead in Christ are raised.

Satan would have you believe that it is ok to add to the text and change the order because God loves you and does not want you to suffer.  His motivation is the same as in the garden, he is driving people to the curse.  Do not add.