The Apocalypse may not happen the way men see it.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Your probably right about the single greatest deception.

I had a brother in law tell me once that he didn't need to read revelation because he wasn't going to be here. He said he  is going to be raptured before any of it takes place.

I'm talking to a guy at work about this. What's interesting to me is how he holds on to all the blessings in Rev 1-3, but not the warnings in those same chapters. 

"The one who overcomes" is said 7 times in Rev 2-3. 

What is the pretrib church overcoming if they aren't there? 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

One's own belief in a particular time for the rapture is something that seems to get very entrenched in believers.

"Ones own belief"? So, in all the scenarios it's just 'ones own belief'? I guarantee one of the scenarios is the one Jesus and Paul taught. 

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Honestly, I see verses for pre, mid and post trib raptures, so I doubt any of our understanding of this is 100% accurate. 

No, you don't. What you see is how the scenario can be derived; I can see that as well. There is no evidence for several varied scenarios for the Gathering of us to Him. That's confusion.

There is evidence for one 2nd coming, not several. Evidence for one gathering, not several. Evidence for 2 resurrections 1000 years apart. Not several.

17 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

In the end, Jesus is still Lord and lives in all of God's regenerated children - that's the main thing.

Of course that's important. But that doesn't minimize Jesus words. He said to watch. There is a whole book dedicated to the end of the age and Jesus Return. That makes it quite important. 

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

If the wrath of God were to be upon all the world then Jesus would not have said it would be upon the inhabitants of Judea and warned the people outside of Israel not to enter during that time.

Sure He could. A particular location as a hotspot in the end time doesn't preclude a wider, global, problem affecting most everyone. 

Some examples of the global nature of the end of the age:

Rev 3:10 "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,"

Rev 8:7 "and all green grass was burnt up."

Rev 13:3 " and all the world wondered after the beast."

Rev 13:7 "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Rev 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him"

Rev 13:16 "And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

So, it ain't local, it's global.

22 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Now if the mark of the beast were given to everyone all over the world, then everyone all over the world would know when Christ would come because everyone knows the beast continues 42 months and the it is destroyed by Christ at his coming.

The remedy to reconcile this dilemma is realize great tribulation is not wrath; and the beginning of wrath, when Jesus returns, puts an end to great tribulation. Yes, the beast does get the whole 42 months; per Matt 24, the days of the beast's rule where he persecutes believers under great tribulation ends before the 42 months of the beasts ends. 

So then there is no way for believers to know when the Lord will return, only that He will return sometime during the great tribulation and stop the days of fiery persecution of His people. 

22 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Instead Jesus warns everyone outside of Israel not to enter while God's wrath is being poured out upon that people.

It's not God's wrath. This is the same part of the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matt 24 and Mark 13; both of those Gospels show it's the beast causing the trouble. 

Luke 21:25, "And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Clearly this is the Gentiles doing.

Then, Luke 21:28, "When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

So when these things are going on, God is supposedly pouring out His wrath, He is then going to redeem His people? After He already poured out wrath on them? 

No. 

[Dennis1209]

I agree, business as usual, but I think it goes deeper than that. I had some questions about the examples given in the days of Noah and Lot. Whatever it was, there would be a recurrence as in those days.

·         What was it that God chose to cleanse the entire earth (save eight) utterly, and Sodom, Gomorrah, and area (save Lot and two daughters)?

·         Why did Jesus go so far back in history to cite the Days of Noah? There were many other later eras in history He could have noted that were productive and prosperous.

·         Curiously, it is stated they were both marrying and given in marriage two distinct and separate actions. One was holy and traditional, the other not.

The Lord described how evil men’s hearts were continual during the days of Noah. That Noah was “perfect in his generation.” We know that statement does not mean sinlessness. I submit it as a statement about Noah’s genetics as created. Not only did Satan and his minions commit genocide several times throughout history to prevent the coming Messiah, but they also tried to contaminate the bloodline of the Messiah to prevent His coming (Genesis 6:1-4).

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Sure He could. A particular location as a hotspot in the end time doesn't preclude a wider, global, problem affecting most everyone. 

Some examples of the global nature of the end of the age:

Rev 3:10 "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,"

Rev 8:7 "and all green grass was burnt up."

Rev 13:3 " and all the world wondered after the beast."

Rev 13:7 "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Rev 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him"

Rev 13:16 "And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

So, it ain't local, it's global.

The remedy to reconcile this dilemma is realize great tribulation is not wrath; and the beginning of wrath, when Jesus returns, puts an end to great tribulation. Yes, the beast does get the whole 42 months; per Matt 24, the days of the beast's rule where he persecutes believers under great tribulation ends before the 42 months of the beasts ends. 

So then there is no way for believers to know when the Lord will return, only that He will return sometime during the great tribulation and stop the days of fiery persecution of His people. 

It's not God's wrath. This is the same part of the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matt 24 and Mark 13; both of those Gospels show it's the beast causing the trouble. 

Luke 21:25, "And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Clearly this is the Gentiles doing.

Then, Luke 21:28, "When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

So when these things are going on, God is supposedly pouring out His wrath, He is then going to redeem His people? After He already poured out wrath on them? 

No. 

Rev 13:3 " and all the world wondered after the beast."

 

Jews from all over the world have already wondered after the beast from all nations ,tongues and peoples.

I read in the news where he was talking about putting microchips in ALL of them that has followed after him.

 

You so sure everyone in the entire world will get his mark when he is only planning to give it to all them who wondered after him?

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Rev 13:3 " and all the world wondered after the beast."

 

Jews from all over the world have already wondered after the beast from all nations ,tongues and peoples.

I read in the news where he was talking about putting microchips in ALL of them that has followed after him.

 

You so sure everyone in the entire world will get his mark when he is only planning to give it to all them who wondered after him?

That's what the prophecy says. I have looked up 'all' in the Greek, it's every part of the total, in this case it's earth dwellers.

"All the world wondered..." from Rev 13:3, 'all' is:

" hólos – properly, wholly, where all the parts are present and working as a whole – i.e. as the total, which is greater than the mere sum of the parts. " so,

"Every part of the world wondered..." It's a global thing. 

And no, I don't think every man, woman, and child will get the mark. Most will, not all. 

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

That's what the prophecy says. I have looked up 'all' in the Greek, it's every part of the total, in this case it's earth dwellers.

"All the world wondered..." from Rev 13:3, 'all' is:

" hólos – properly, wholly, where all the parts are present and working as a whole – i.e. as the total, which is greater than the mere sum of the parts. " so,

"Every part of the world wondered..." It's a global thing. 

And no, I don't think every man, woman, and child will get the mark. Most will, not all. 

Yes I've read it. Some translations says wondered after the beast or followed after the beast.And that is what has happen.People from all over the world have followed after the beast.

Revelation 13.

One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

 

But since I learned what the beast is about 20-25 years ago I've been paying close attention to him.Just a couple of years ago he said he wanted to put a microchip in everyone who has followed after him into his kingdom.He said he wants them in all his citizens.He didn't say he wanted to put them in everyone in the world.He said he wants them in every Israeli starting with the children first.

While speaking at a press conference on Monday, Netanyahu suggested the Health Ministry use new technology to help Israel adjust to its new routine as the state is lifting the coronavirus lockdown. "That is, technology that has not been used before and is allowed under the legislation we shall enact," he clarified.

I spoke with our heads of technology in order to find measures Israel is good at, such as sensors. For instance, every person, every kid – I want it on kids first

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/benjamin-netanyahu-suggests-to-microchip-kids-slammed-by-experts-627381

 

I also understand that he does not do this untill the USA gives him a host.At that time he will enact legislation so they have a couple more years yet.

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Yes I've read it. Some translations says wondered after the beast or followed after the beast.And that is what has happen.People from all over the world have followed after the beast.

Revelation 13.

One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

 

But since I learned what the beast is about 20-25 years ago I've been paying close attention to him.Just a couple of years ago he said he wanted to put a microchip in everyone who has followed after him into his kingdom.He said he wants them in all his citizens.He didn't say he wanted to put them in everyone in the world.He said he wants them in every Israeli starting with the children first.

While speaking at a press conference on Monday, Netanyahu suggested the Health Ministry use new technology to help Israel adjust to its new routine as the state is lifting the coronavirus lockdown. "That is, technology that has not been used before and is allowed under the legislation we shall enact," he clarified.

I spoke with our heads of technology in order to find measures Israel is good at, such as sensors. For instance, every person, every kid – I want it on kids first

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/benjamin-netanyahu-suggests-to-microchip-kids-slammed-by-experts-627381

 

I also understand that he does not do this untill the USA gives him a host.At that time he will enact legislation so they have a couple more years yet.

Sure, I get that. Check out what I posted here:

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 6/15/2023 at 5:10 AM, Diaste said:

Sure He could. A particular location as a hotspot in the end time doesn't preclude a wider, global, problem affecting most everyone. 

Some examples of the global nature of the end of the age:

Rev 3:10 "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,"

Rev 8:7 "and all green grass was burnt up."

Rev 13:3 " and all the world wondered after the beast."

Rev 13:7 "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Rev 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him"

Rev 13:16 "And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

So, it ain't local, it's global.

The remedy to reconcile this dilemma is realize great tribulation is not wrath; and the beginning of wrath, when Jesus returns, puts an end to great tribulation. Yes, the beast does get the whole 42 months; per Matt 24, the days of the beast's rule where he persecutes believers under great tribulation ends before the 42 months of the beasts ends. 

So then there is no way for believers to know when the Lord will return, only that He will return sometime during the great tribulation and stop the days of fiery persecution of His people. 

It's not God's wrath. This is the same part of the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matt 24 and Mark 13; both of those Gospels show it's the beast causing the trouble. 

Luke 21:25, "And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Clearly this is the Gentiles doing.

Then, Luke 21:28, "When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”"

So when these things are going on, God is supposedly pouring out His wrath, He is then going to redeem His people? After He already poured out wrath on them? 

No. 

No?

Those who have been marked by Christ do not recieve wrath of God while the unbelievers do.

Ezekiel shows Gods wrath being poured out on the Jews while those who Christ has placed a mark on do not receive the wrath.

Exekiel

9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

² And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

³ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

⁴ And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

⁵ And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

 

⁶ Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

⁷ And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

⁸ And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

⁹ Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

 

¹⁰ And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

¹¹ And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

 

 

You don't think God can do this?

Edited June 17, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

No?

No. Not in this scenario of great tribulation and wrath at the end of the age which, "has never been nor will be again".

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Those who have been marked by Christ do not receive wrath of God while the unbelievers do.

I don't see that the scriptures equate great tribulation with the wrath of God and the Lamb. The great tribulation is testing. Once the test has reached the critical point it's ended by Jesus arrival, believers are taken in the harpazo, and wrath begins. 

Wrath is the action to put down the enemies of God after great tribulation is ended.

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Ezekiel shows Gods wrath being poured out on the Jews while those who Christ has placed a mark on do not receive the wrath.

Yes, I have read this in Ezekiel. I don't know enough about it to know when it was supposed to come to pass, or if it did. I assume it did. I see no end of the age clues in the passage.