Our Tri-part Make Up

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

teddyv said: 

I knew and cared about are conscious in unending perpetual agony, in whatever form that takes. Seems rather cruel and does not comport with the nature of God.

This is what fuels the humanistic mind set ... not Scripture. We don't want to make God sound so cruel. Man was created to the needs within his framework hunger, sleep, love, hot and cold, friendship, and on on our needs go. Hell is God giving them the very thing they wanted->  not to have anything to do with God... thus the need with no God to provide for them. God cruel... I think not.

And Jesus made clear that at the judgment it will be more tolerable/bearable for some than for others, the context being the LOF since Jesus specifically referred to Sodom and Gomorrah.

The the level of torment will be MORE tolerable for some than for others, based on their works/deeds.

[teddyv]

17 hours ago, enoob57 said:

There will be nothing in hell God cares for... hence the eternal separation from Him...

So Hell/LOF is self-sustaining? So much for God's total sovereignty.

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Now, what does that mean?  Everyone is born spiritually DEAD, so the "second death" cannot refer to spiritual death, since all unbelievers, who will face there GWT judgment, are already spiritually dead.

The second death is speaking of eternal separation from God... the first death was waiting for judgment where they would be before God one more time at GWT... The rest I will need to study some to give an answer...

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

So Hell/LOF is self-sustaining? So much for God's total sovereignty.

God's wrath fuels hell for eternity...

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

The second death is speaking of eternal separation from God... the first death was waiting for judgment where they would be before God one more time at GWT... The rest I will need to study some to give an answer...

I don't agree.  I already explained my understanding.  Everyone is born spiritually dead, and the LOF doesn't change that.  What HAS TO DIE AGAIN is the resurrected physical and still mortal body.  

Do you not believe that unbelievers will be resurrected into their physical bodies to face the GWT judgment?

I gave verses that say there will be a resurrection of the unsaved, and I gave verses that call the LOF the second death.  What am I missing?

The "one more time" certainly isn't a second chance for salvation.  Or the Bible would clearly make that point.  

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't agree.  I already explained my understanding.  Everyone is born spiritually dead, and the LOF doesn't change that.  What HAS TO DIE AGAIN is the resurrected physical and still mortal body.  

Do you not believe that unbelievers will be resurrected into their physical bodies to face the GWT judgment?

I gave verses that say there will be a resurrection of the unsaved, and I gave verses that call the LOF the second death.  What am I missing?

The "one more time" certainly isn't a second chance for salvation.  Or the Bible would clearly make that point.  

You are giving a great deal to body importance whereas in s/Spirit Paul's experience seems to not even be discerned...
2 Corinthians 12:1 (KJV)

[12:1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

[5] Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

[6] For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

When s/Spiritual matters grows to a point of eternal decision the physical will not be in foremost of thought... I certainly see where the separation of God and all that is of God for ever without end a foremost horror of what hell is...

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't agree.

I am sure this won't be the last time  

[enoob57]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 2:11 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 20:6 - Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 - Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

These verses call the LOF the "second death".  So it is.

Now, what does that mean?  Everyone is born spiritually DEAD, so the "second death" cannot refer to spiritual death, since all unbelievers, who will face there GWT judgment, are already spiritually dead.

So it has to refer to the unbeliever's bodies, which will be resurrected.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28,29    28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice  29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15  - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

These 3 verses say that unbelievers will be "raised to life" or "resurrected" for their judgment.

 

I examined these in context and don't see your conclusions... there is so little said giving every indication why there are so many varying opinions...

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

FreeGrace said: 

I don't agree.  I already explained my understanding.  Everyone is born spiritually dead, and the LOF doesn't change that.  What HAS TO DIE AGAIN is the resurrected physical and still mortal body. 

You are giving a great deal to body importance whereas in s/Spirit Paul's experience seems to not even be discerned...

Paul himself SAID that there would be a resurrection of the unsaved in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I am saying nothing beyond what Paul said.  It seems you don't believe that the bodies of the unsaved will be resurrected then?  Why, when Paul said they would be?

And this is what Jesus said about resurrection in John 5-

 

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

And one of the prophets, Daniel said this:  Dan 12:2 -  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

These 3 verses SAY that the unsaved will be resurrected.  Clearly.  That means the BODY, obviously.

And it makes perfect sense that their physically resurrected but still mortal bodies WILL DIE AGAIN when they are cast into the LOF.

Now, if you can actually refute this with clear Scripture, please do.

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

2 Corinthians 12:1 (KJV)

[12:1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

[5] Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

[6] For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

When s/Spiritual matters grows to a point of eternal decision the physical will not be in foremost of thought... I certainly see where the separation of God and all that is of God for ever without end a foremost horror of what hell is...

I never said the "physical will be foremost of thought".  I was explaining WHY the LOF is also called "the second death", because that involves the resurrected but mortal physical bodies of the unsaved.  They get to die twice physically.  

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, enoob57 said:

FreeGrace said: 

Rev 2:11 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 20:6 - Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 - Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

These verses call the LOF the "second death".  So it is.

I examined these in context and don't see your conclusions... there is so little said giving every indication why there are so many varying opinions...

Are you suggesting that the words "second death" doesn't refer to the LOF??

Rev 20:14 PLAINLY SAYS it is.  

The LOF where ALL unbelievers will experience a SECOND physical death.

If not, what happens to their resurrected yet mortal carcasses after the GWT judgment?

Do you have any verses that have a different explanation for the resurrected physical bodies of the unsaved?