Church bulletin

[Avodah]

It is not your/my place to condemn anyone! If God doesn't condemn anyone who is in Christ Jesus and who walks according to the Spirit and not the flesh, then who are you or I to do so? Pride and arrogance! Remember what happens to those who wrongly judge others... you will be judged by those same standards. Will you be able to withstand your own judgment?

How am I condemning him when it was his own words? Gerioke did what he always does, he baited people into a fight then got offended.

But this is not the intent of the thread. It's about giving with your credit card or not.

Someone was saying that because our firstfruits (10%) belongs to the Lord we should not use credit cards. I asked why it matters.

And why condemn someone who believes in the 10%?

Quote me where I condemned them. Prove that I did.

How condescending! This sounds exactly like something a Pharisee would say! Believe what you want, discuss your different opinions... I will gladly listen and consider them. But do you really believe this attitude is acceptable to God? It's pride and arrogance.

What the crap? He made the argument that I could not possibly know what he has gone through. I pointed out that I did and that I have gone through a lot, yet have not turned to credit cards to save me. How is that wrong in any way? Shall I, next time, just go, "Okay, you're right, forget my personal expirience?"

If anything, the only thing you accomplish in posting this little tid bit is performing the very thing you accuse me of.

But the way you present your point doesn't exactly make people open to your point. If it comes across with attitude, who cares what your point is?

That is purely an American ideal that we "cannot offend people". Sorry, I will speak the truth and only the truth, if someone if offended by it, tough.

From Ger's own writings:

Credit cards intice you to live beyond your means.Before I had credit cards, I had no debt and was able to live within my budget. Now I have credit cards, 6000 dollars in debt, and am finding it hard to make ends meet.

My personal experience is that credit cards have great potential for evil. Credit card companies are in the business of money and mammon is the CEO

To which Tess responded with:

And for some people chocolate entices them to commit gluttony. For others, the internet entices them to look up pornography. This doesn't mean chocolate or the inernet are evil in and of themselves, it's how they are used which can lead to the problem. Just because credit cards are a temptation for you, does not mean they are a temptation to everyone else. Each person is responsible for their own choices. The problem lies with the individual, not with the object used to commit sin.

She later pointed out:

What do you consider to be a "tithe"? Do you consider yourself 'tithing' to the electric company when you pay them for a service? This scripture is talking about a heart issue, a heart that's divided. We become a slave/servant to whatever it is we are trying to please. If you are seeking God, serving Him and seeking to please Him you cannot equally be seeking to be materialistic and gain material things. If you racked up credit card debt with purchases you did not need, it was your heart that was serving two masters...and that other master was not "Mastercard", it was your greed and desire to please yourself rather than God.

Now...judging from what Gerioke said about purchasing things outside his means of control...how was Tess wrong in saying this?

The fact is Ger did what he does in every single thread, picked a fight and then got offended. How is what she, or I, said wrong? How was he condemned when he did it himself? How was he attacked when he did it himself? Gerioke is the only person in here that pointed to his own sin and condemned himself for it...Tess and I were merely saying that if you get into credit card debt by buying stuff that is outside of your means, it is greedy and a lack of self control. How is that wrong? How is it a condemnation? How is that an attack? Get off your high horse Keith and others, read the entire topic before shooting off your mouths.

ai, ai, ai, I give up! - Sombody delete this please before all our christian brothers and sisters have a coranary. I am so sick of the attitude and the bickering and the "I'm right", "No, I'm right", "You said", "She said", "He said". All I see on here is pride and offence. Just knock it off and grow up!

I have tried to be nice and have asked that people would stop with their judging and bad mouthing. Now, I am not being nice, I'm quite upset actualy. I have read enough. This IS my post, and I am asking that you all stick to the subject of the OP.

Thanks.

[Guest yod]

Tess and I were merely saying that if you get into credit card debt by buying stuff that is outside of your means, it is greedy and a lack of self control. How is that wrong? How is it a condemnation?

Because just as he doesn't allow that there can be any other reason to use a credit card, you have done the same in the other extreme.

There is a happy medium and I know you would agree...though the "anti-credit" people probably would not.

Let the Lord judge our hearts intent when we give. How we give is no one's business but ours and His. To say any more than that is sin.

[apothanein kerdos]

As I recall, the topic is about whether or not a church should encourage giving by credit card, not whether or not our brother is a sinner because he is in debt.

The fact is its an underhanded practise designed to prey on people's emotional responses to an altar call or sermon in hopes of getting one more buck out of the congregation.

Why aren't the people giving to begin with? What if a person can give more with a credit card (or, more importantly, a debit card)?

[Guest yod]

The fact is its an underhanded practise designed to prey on people's emotional responses to an altar call or sermon in hopes of getting one more buck out of the congregation.

The only fact in that statement is that this is your opinion

[Keith]

But the way you present your point doesn't exactly make people open to your point. If it comes across with attitude, who cares what your point is?

That is purely an American ideal that we "cannot offend people". Sorry, I will speak the truth and only the truth, if someone if offended by it, tough.

SJ, you often have good things to say. I've enjoyed reading your posts; the ones I disagree with as well as the ones I agree with. You have a way of presenting different sides to things that I hadn't seen before. I wouldn't expect you to say anything that you didn't believe was the truth. However, the way in which you say things at times is what I'm talking about. Speaking the truth doesn't need to be done rudely. That, if anything, is the American ideal. I'm not saying to sugar coat things either, but there is a balance.

If you feel that someone is baiting you/others for arguments, just don't fall for the bait. Ignore it. If you feel the need to respond, why not begin with something like: "I disagree," and then state your views? I'm hardly perfect, so I'm speaking to me here as much as I am to anyone. Do you see what I'm saying?

[apothanein kerdos]

But the way you present your point doesn't exactly make people open to your point. If it comes across with attitude, who cares what your point is?

That is purely an American ideal that we "cannot offend people". Sorry, I will speak the truth and only the truth, if someone if offended by it, tough.

SJ, you often have good things to say. I've enjoyed reading your posts; the ones I disagree with as well as the ones I agree with. You have a way of presenting different sides to things that I hadn't seen before. I wouldn't expect you to say anything that you didn't believe was the truth. However, the way in which you say things at times is what I'm talking about. Speaking the truth doesn't need to be done rudely. That, if anything, is the American ideal. I'm not saying to sugar coat things either, but there is a balance.

If you feel that someone is baiting you/others for arguments, just don't fall for the bait. Ignore it. If you feel the need to respond, why not begin with something like: "I disagree," and then state your views? I'm hardly perfect, so I'm speaking to me here as much as I am to anyone. Do you see what I'm saying?

I do and I'll work on it. Thank you.

[Keith]

But the way you present your point doesn't exactly make people open to your point. If it comes across with attitude, who cares what your point is?

That is purely an American ideal that we "cannot offend people". Sorry, I will speak the truth and only the truth, if someone if offended by it, tough.

SJ, you often have good things to say. I've enjoyed reading your posts; the ones I disagree with as well as the ones I agree with. You have a way of presenting different sides to things that I hadn't seen before. I wouldn't expect you to say anything that you didn't believe was the truth. However, the way in which you say things at times is what I'm talking about. Speaking the truth doesn't need to be done rudely. That, if anything, is the American ideal. I'm not saying to sugar coat things either, but there is a balance.

If you feel that someone is baiting you/others for arguments, just don't fall for the bait. Ignore it. If you feel the need to respond, why not begin with something like: "I disagree," and then state your views? I'm hardly perfect, so I'm speaking to me here as much as I am to anyone. Do you see what I'm saying?

I do and I'll work on it. Thank you.

And I thank you, SJ. As I said, I was speaking as much to myself. In hindsight, I could have tempered some of my responses to you, too. I'm sorry.

[HisWordIsSufficient]

i think its fine.

what if someone forgets there purse and they have there mini visa? (australia has these real little ones we u can keep in your pocket, there so small u can take em anywhere! yay!)

Some people get there pay put directly onto there credit card to earn frequent flyer points, so not having to make one withdrawl each week i guess could be convenient.

As far as i see it, it doesnt matter how a tithe is payed in a sense of cash, credit or whatever else you can come up with, its about the heart, and how your giving in your heart. As long as your giving.

[Keith]

i think its fine.

what if someone forgets there purse and they have there mini visa? (australia has these real little ones we u can keep in your pocket, there so small u can take em anywhere! yay!)

Some people get there pay put directly onto there credit card to earn frequent flyer points, so not having to make one withdrawl each week i guess could be convenient.

As far as i see it, it doesnt matter how a tithe is payed in a sense of cash, credit or whatever else you can come up with, its about the heart, and how your giving in your heart. As long as your giving.

But from the sound of your post, the spirit in which the giving is done is this....

Oh, I forgot my purse, I'll just give my tithe on the credit card! (where is the preparation of and thought put into giving? Is it not worship?) And I'll get frequent flyer points, too! (Worship isn't about that at all. This is thinking about yourself and not the Lord in your giving.) Making one withdrawal each week is inconvenient. (One withdrawal a week is too inconvenient to worship the Lord???)

You said above that it's about the heart and how you're giving in your heart. From what you described, I don't see any heart in it. Convenience (to you) and reward (to you). Tithes and offerings are not about "as long as you're giving". Like it was said, it's about worship and coming prepared. In the Bible, people didn't run to church and remember, "Oh, I forgot my offerings!" They planned it out in advance. They picked the finest and best of what they had to give. Thought and preparation went into it. The type of giving you described is not anyone's "best."

[HisWordIsSufficient]

i think its fine.

what if someone forgets there purse and they have there mini visa? (australia has these real little ones we u can keep in your pocket, there so small u can take em anywhere! yay!)

Some people get there pay put directly onto there credit card to earn frequent flyer points, so not having to make one withdrawl each week i guess could be convenient.

As far as i see it, it doesnt matter how a tithe is payed in a sense of cash, credit or whatever else you can come up with, its about the heart, and how your giving in your heart. As long as your giving.

But from the sound of your post, the spirit in which the giving is done is this....

Oh, I forgot my purse, I'll just give my tithe on the credit card! (where is the preparation of and thought put into giving? Is it not worship?) And I'll get frequent flyer points, too! (Worship isn't about that at all. This is thinking about yourself and not the Lord in your giving.) Making one withdrawal each week is inconvenient. (One withdrawal a week is too inconvenient to worship the Lord???)

You said above that it's about the heart and how you're giving in your heart. From what you described, I don't see any heart in it. Convenience (to you) and reward (to you). Tithes and offerings are not about "as long as you're giving". Like it was said, it's about worship and coming prepared. In the Bible, people didn't run to church and remember, "Oh, I forgot my offerings!" They planned it out in advance. They picked the finest and best of what they had to give. Thought and preparation went into it. The type of giving you described is not anyone's "best."

Listen mate, dont jump to conclusions. i said, people put there pay on there credit cards for frequent flyer points, this is to point out, all because your paying off a credit card, doesnt mean your tithing off of un earned money, because your pay is in there. The reason people put there money on there is for points. NOT FOR TITHING POINTS that is ridiculous.

Tithing, if it is a regular thing like it should be, will always be planned because you need ten percent deliberately put in there.... but theres this thing called....hmm...LIFE! You could have worked out your finances the night before, put your purse on the bench where you wont forget it, then you make dinner, pray, talk with your husband/wife, work on the ladies/mens meeting for that sunday night, finding the last scriptures to put together and stuff like that, in the morning you get your children ready for church, enjoy some early worship, make brekkie for the whole family, make sure your kids remember there bibles and a jumper and a pen and a notebook and a drinkbottle and if you have a really young one, all the stuff like bottles. Whoops, nearly forgot my own bible! lucky i remembered, phew, and my notebook, oh darling, do you have yours too? What about the food for childrens church?? got that? oh good.

Get to church, and you left your purse on the bench. Well there you have it. Easily done. it was prepared. And was going to be given with the right heart, but oh dear, were human and we actually forget something, thank goodness i have my card with me and i can still give to the Lord, how wonderful!!!

You, my friend, seem to be very negative. Maybe you need to pray about it or something. Try and see the good in things. People get busy. and tithing isnt the only thing they do. Its very important. but so is the stuff they need to bring for kids church, and morning devotionals, and making sure little sally doesnt forget her bible. Sometimes we forget things and that has NOTHING to do with our heart about it. You have no place judging peoples hearts like that, thats God's job. You just love them and let them pay there tithes however they want to. its none of your business what works for them in the way of tithing. as long as there doing it.