Why the focus on just a few people functioning (up front) in our gatherings?

[Michael37]

17 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. A remarkable servant of the Lord. I cannot judge him ... nor can I overturn God's Word.

There is no sin in being a single leader of an assembly.

Only a very severe interpretation of Scripture would prohibit this.

[Neighbor]

 Hi all, interesting thread  as it weaves along.

I do think it is incorrect to set up a difference  in assembly formats that may not exist, or at least in not looking at those assemblies that have both  much participation by those that assemble and also have  order in worship services where the speakers are gifted as teachers, usually the elders/pastors/overseers.

Local bodies of Christ Jesus may  have  both formal structured worship plus many times of gatherings where exchange and interplay and debate even are a part of the gathering's process.

 

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Michael37 said:

There is no sin in being a single leader of an assembly.

Only a very severe interpretation of Scripture would prohibit this.

I don't see a need to interpret. The language is plain. The Overseer of Christ's Assembly needs human training. This training is received by managing a wife who is usually close to the man in ability (otherwise she is not "meet" for him) and children who will push the limits from tantrums at 1 year old to open rebellion at 14. The word "MUST" makes it emphatic. Notice in Matthew 25 the same. The Talent is given "according to several ability".

For each qualification an equivalent training is needed. David must herd sheep before he can herd Israel. He must face the lion and the bear before he can face Goliath. He must be in Saul's courts before his own, to learn first-hand how it is done or not done. He must lead 400 men in the wilderness before he can lead a Nation.

God has joined Himself and His councils to man. He never sends an untrained man into a duty.

Note, for instance, that the Overseer's wife needs no qualification. But the wife of the deacon does. Why? Because the deacon "serves tables" and will get to see the smutty side of a Church Life. His wife must be discrete. The Overseer has no authority outside the meeting, but the deacons will operate in sordid circumstances at midnight when a frustrated wife has stabbed her (deserving) husband. They will visit a family were the babies have had no food for a week. Ever wondered why the qualifications of deacons in Acts 6 are greater than those of a Pastor?

There is nothing in God's Word that is there for the sake of filling a book. I am not so naive as to think that Christians will adhere to God's Word, but somebody needs to say something. The laws of the USA for airline pilots are strict. Shall not the Living God require even stricter measures for those who steer God's people?

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Neighbor said:

 Hi all, interesting thread  as it weaves along.

I do think it is incorrect to set up a difference  in assembly formats that may not exist, or at least in not looking at those assemblies that have both  much participation by those that assemble and also have  order in worship services where the speakers are gifted as teachers, usually the elders/pastors/overseers.

Local bodies of Christ Jesus may  have  both formal structured worship plus many times of gatherings where exchange and interplay and debate even are a part of the gathering's process.

 

Quite. I hope that the author will allow these "weavings". The difference between a modern Christian Church service and what we read about in Acts is like night and day. Where do we draw the line? Let me make an observation or two, without offering a solution.

1. The only general and public place that the Church of the Bible met was the Temple of Jerusalem. It's Assembly fell back into the Law. God allowed it to be destroyed within 40 years. Every other record of a meeting place was a house. Paul rented a house for Bible study.

2. For all that is written on the Lord's Table, the cup is NEVER declared to contain wine, and the bread s never declared to be unleavened. Could it be that the Holy Spirit set things up for prisoners who could not have these things but still break bread in their cells. Is dirty water and leavened bread acceptable to the Lord?

3. I might have missed something but music is never mentioned in the Assembly. Singing yes, but music no. In countries that persecute Christians, music would draw the authorities, or at least the neighbors to report it. I have observed over the years that the "Music Ministry" almost always causes conflict in the Eldership.

Just observing.

 

[Alive]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Quite. I hope that the author will allow these "weavings". The difference between a modern Christian Church service and what we read about in Acts is like night and day. Where do we draw the line? Let me make an observation or two, without offering a solution.

1. The only general and public place that the Church of the Bible met was the Temple of Jerusalem. It's Assembly fell back into the Law. God allowed it to be destroyed within 40 years. Every other record of a meeting place was a house. Paul rented a house for Bible study.

2. For all that is written on the Lord's Table, the cup is NEVER declared to contain wine, and the bread s never declared to be unleavened. Could it be that the Holy Spirit set things up for prisoners who could not have these things but still break bread in their cells. Is dirty water and leavened bread acceptable to the Lord?

3. I might have missed something but music is never mentioned in the Assembly. Singing yes, but music no. In countries that persecute Christians, music would draw the authorities, or at least the neighbors to report it. I have observed over the years that the "Music Ministry" almost always causes conflict in the Eldership.

Just observing.

 

We had the same Teacher. I write that with a small measure of levity, but it is serious.

That time of prepararation is so real and needed. My two prime examples that I experienced being played out were Jacob finally coming to the end of himself…a very strong and capable self and David under Saul, who learned to not throw spears back at the insane Saul. He learned to duck, not get hit and therefore not poisoned.

[kwikphilly]

On 6/27/2023 at 1:28 PM, Vine Abider said:

I've been to Sunday gatherings with a variety of groups over the past 50 years.  I always enjoy getting with believers, no matter how they meet - the Lord is in us! But I've noticed almost everyone follows the same basic format: An up front stage where the focus is on a few people functioning.

In these Sunday assemblies, there is usually a "worship team" who plays music and sings on a stage, and then someone comes up front to give a message. In a few gatherings I've been to, sometimes interaction may be encouraged - members are directed, perhaps during a short break, to speak with the person sitting next to them.

But one thing almost never happens in nearly all places I've visited: Members are not encouraged to speak or otherwise participate (other than singing along with the worship team).

However, I've also been to gatherings where the meetings were more open and saints were encouraged to function.  That is, they were free to call a particular song to sing, or standup (at their seat) and share something that the Lord is touching is their heart with, or ask for prayer, or maybe just to share about something or someone who encouraged them to pursue Christ.  And then, after the ministry message was given, some would then share how they related to it or were touched.

To me this kind of functioning of the body is incredibly encouraging, nourishing and greatly builds-up one another! 

I've heard some say that this only works in smaller gatherings, and while it's certainly true that a larger portion of members can share in smaller settings, I've also experienced this in much larger groups.

So two questions:

1. Where did we get this near universal format of focusing so much on a few people functioning up front?

2. Why is its practice so prevailing? 

Great topic and imo something to bring to tye table wherever we Gather( or try to)

My old congregation of many many years was a well functioning effective BODY... I do Believe it had much to do with our Pastor who Encouraged each member to MOVE as he/she was Lead by Holy Spirit to do ...never disorderly,our Lord is never out of order....

It's a Special ,Spirit Filled & Lead Leadership that is lacking imo .... Oh how I miss those Gatherings(Pastor died,it was never tye same)

I do what I can to encourage other leaders to let Holy Spirit MOVE,they seem to stay in their little comfort zones and just stick to the program.....I see traditions of men,routines and scheduled programming to fit their own timelines etc .... not so Trusting of our Lord,is it?

With love in Christ,Kwik

It's much more like watching a show than corporate Praise & Worship in most places ,imo

 

 

 

[Neighbor]

50 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I might have missed something but music is never mentioned in the Assembly. Singing yes, but music no. In countries that persecute Christians, music would draw the authorities, or at least the neighbors to report it. I have observed over the years that the "Music Ministry" almost always causes conflict in the Eldership.

 

Oh yes!  Why even Martin Luther had to opine on the church organ being the devil's instrument.

Humor button on: Pity the poor music director candidate, he must find a wife with an awesome voice and then offer her up free of charge to the congregation as a bonus else not get the position. Humor button off.

I have found it also humorous the stand by the Church of Christ on worship music. There being no reference to instruments in the New Testament there can be no instruments in worship music either. And, since that is forbidden there can also be no solos, nor any multipart harmony, for that may build up pride.

YET each Sunday the leader in music worship would sound his pitch pipe to get us all on the same key.

Still haven't found mention of a pitch pipe in the New Testament.

My long time church association of over 22 years, 14 as an employee, had some 50 80+ year olds  leave the church because  their offer/demand that the church elders restore having a pipe organ, and also sing In The Garden was rejected.

It does get funny, sad but also funny, what many find an absolute that they will "go to the cross" over.

PS - to get back  more on topic: I would hate to think what the Spurgeon Archives of  sermons would look like under a church that would have been organized as has been advocated by some here.

[Anne2]

12 hours ago, Neighbor said:

 Hi all, interesting thread  as it weaves along.

I do think it is incorrect to set up a difference  in assembly formats that may not exist, or at least in not looking at those assemblies that have both  much participation by those that assemble and also have  order in worship services where the speakers are gifted as teachers, usually the elders/pastors/overseers.

Local bodies of Christ Jesus may  have  both formal structured worship plus many times of gatherings where exchange and interplay and debate even are a part of the gathering's process.

 

I do believe there is biblically a distinction between these activities, as a function of God's ministers at the temple, and those having council together and synagogue. It seems these are all getting mixed together somewhat in the thread.

[Neighbor]

It is an interesting thread with nicely voiced contrasting thoughts 

[Anne2]

23 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

It is an interesting thread with nicely voiced contrasting thoughts 

Yes, it is interesting. I think, not sure but IMO, there are some foundational concepts that are different (therefore neglected in consideration). But I do think those differences can drive a person's views. Not absolutely sure though.