Are carnal Christian’s saved?

[FreeGrace]

43 minutes ago, SaraJane said:

Brother, he doesn’t know..that’s a red flag as you well know...he actually believes that the Holy Spirit can reside in a sinful human heart...

Either you are having quite a struggle understanding clear English, or you are intentionally misrepresenting me.  If intentional, then you've just demonstrated you STILL ARE a sinner.
 

What I said is that the new birth is the regeneration of the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides in the believer.  And from THAT nature, the believer cannot sin.

However, you have said there is no longer a sinful human nature, but Paul refutes that notion in Romans 7, which you haven't acknowledged yet.

If you want to ascribe a view of another poster, AT LEAST get it right.  Again, either you are reading very poorly, or it's intentional.  

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, SaraJane said:

Sound Doctrine.

Jesus said, “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.” Mark 3:25

   Do born again Christians have a sinful nature? Absolutely not!  

First, the verse isn't even about what you are claiming.  And Romans 7 absolutely refutes your error, but it seems you STILL haven't read it yet.

What are you waiting for?

And please address 1 John 1:8 and 10, which addresses those who claim what you claim.

[Stewardofthemystery]

4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So you don't understand 'context'?

Slick trick.  Claim you did but didn't.  Oh yeah, you totally misquoted the verse and I pointed it out and told you where your quote actually came from; Rom 3:23.

Trying to force Rom 3:23 into 1 John 1:8 demonstrates your comprehension issues with Scripture.

So, have you read the verse yet, and are you prepared to address its clear message?

I say the verse describes those who claim to be without sin (as you do) are self deceived and don't have the truth in them.

Now, quote the verse and prove that I am misunderstanding the verse.

Sure I understand context, but false prophets are not the “good trees” that “cannot” bear evil fruit as Jesus said.

Matthew 7:18

A good tree “cannot”bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

 

Since you don’t know who the “good trees” are that “cannot” bear evil fruit, I will give you the answer.

 

Isaiah 61:3

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that ((((they might be called trees of righteousness,))the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

 

Now if God “makes” a tree to be “righteous” it “cannot” bear evil fruit ( sin)

 

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tell me, how many times can a virgin commit fornication before she is no longer considered to be a virgin?

2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”

[Vine Abider]

16 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Your name suggests that you are a Vine abider. But what happens if one does not abide in the Vine?

 

Jesus said in John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.4

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”

Ok, some claim all Christians still "abide in sin", and that they "keep on sinning" even though they claim to have been born again of God's Holy Spirit. And even despite that ongoing disobedience and reoccurring sin they proclaim you still "abide in Christ".

This my friends is false doctrine, because you cannot remain “in sin”and also remain “in Christ”at the same time.

Notice Jesus said in order to bear fruit one must "abide in Him", that also means believing in and abiding in His words. And here is what it means to abide in Him…

1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

The "seed" mentioned there is "Christ". And again to "abide in Christ" is to...

1 John 3:6 “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”

So the simple truth is in order to bear good fruit we must "abide in Christ", which is to "abide in God's Word".

And as we saw above to "abide in His love" we must keep His commandments" And to abide in Christ and remain in Christ one must stop sinning, because sinning is not abiding in Gods Word, neither is sinning abiding in the faith of Christ.

Now if one is still sinning are they truly "in Christ"? Not according to the words of God.

Also we are shown in John 15 what happens if one in Him does not bear good fruit, Jesus said in John 15:2 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:” 

So anyone in him that does not bear good fruit he takes away, meaning you will no longer "abide in" the Life of Christ (the vine).

And not only that we are told in verse 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
 

That is not salvation people, that is Destruction.

Also we cannot bear good fruit on our own except we “abide in Him”John 15:4 “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” 

And again, to abide in Christ means you cannot abide “in sin.”

Sin is not good fruit.
And if you remain in sin, then you truly don’t "abide in Christ" do you?

And as Jesus said, those who do not "abide in Him" are cast forth as a branch, and then gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

Christ is not a vine of sin (minister of sin) Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Anyone who says you can “abide in sin”and still remain “in Christ”at the same time is a liar and a deceiver.

It is written in 2 John 9-10 “ Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”

It is your sins that separate you from God…

Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”

Just as Jesus is separated from sinners…..

Hebrews 7:26 “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;”

And again "in Christ" there is no sin….. 1 John 3…..
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever “abideth in him sinneth not:”whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

And to Love God and to "abide in Christ" is to keep His commandments….
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Abide in the Light of the Truth….1 John 2…..
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are “in him.”6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” 

Did Jesus walk in sin? Of course not!

Jesus said in John 12:46 " I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not "abide in darkness." Meaning you should not abide in "the works of darkness," which is sin.

Also no false doctrine, or lie is of the Truth…..21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.” 

Just as the prince of this world and his spirit has no place in Christ either…. John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.” 

Sin and darkness do not “abide in”the Light of Christ, and neither do those who still abide “in sin”and in darkness.

Jesus said whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin, and a servant of sin will not abide in His house forever. 

Brethren, abide in Christ. Peace and God bless

Thanks for the reply.  And you do bring up a very good passage in John 15:6 regarding branches that don't abide in the vine - the Father gathers them up to be burned.

So what happens with this burning?  Look at this passage in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.  If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 

There are a plethora of verses showing that we don't cease to be children of God once we are born with His eternal life in us. And there are a number of verses warning us to be careful how we build, how we conduct ourselves after becoming His children . . . our actions/works will receive fiery judgement.  However, as the passage above explains, even if ALL our works get burned up in this judgement, we ourselves will survive. We may suffer loss, but we are saved.

Here's something to consider.  When Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again, Nicodemus asked if he could climb back into his mother's womb.  He though that is what being born again meant - a distinct impossibility.  In the same way, once we are born of the Spirit, we can't go back and somehow undo that birth.  We are children born of the Most High eternally. 

CC: @SaraJane

[Vine Abider]

46 minutes ago, SaraJane said:

Sound Doctrine.

 

Do Born Again Christians Have a Sinful Nature?

Jesus said, “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.” Mark 3:25

   Do born again Christians have a sinful nature? Absolutely not!  The Bible is very straightforward on this.  Yet many Christians mistakenly think they have two natures within them, a new nature and a sin nature, which war against each other.  They believe that their new nature loves God and wants to practice righteousness but that their old sinful nature loves sin and wants to practice lawlessness.  They think that their Christian life reflects whichever of their two natures they yield themselves to the most. This lie is one of the greatest deceptions the devil has “sold” to the church and many Christians have bought this lie.  Tragically, these Christians are then overcome by sin because they do not understand or believe   the truth about Christ’s triumph on the cross.

   Jesus Christ said if you know the truth of His Word, He will free you from slavery to sin (John 8:31-36).  With this in mind, let us look at three Scriptures that plainly state we no longer have a sinful nature after we are born of the Spirit.  Here is the first one: “We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that our body of sin (our sinful nature) might be removed so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died has been freed from sin (Romans 6:6-7).”  Here is the second one: “You are not in the flesh (the sinful nature) but inthe Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you (Romans 8:9).  And here is the third one: “In Him you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of flesh (the sinful nature), by the circumcision of Christ (Colossians 2:11).”  In all three verses, the apostle Paul teaches that we no longer have a sinful nature after we are born again of God’s Spirit.

   The Bible contains two powerful pictures to show us that our sinful nature was removed from us when we were born again.  Circumcision was the seal of righteousness in the Old Covenant. In circumcision, the foreskin was removed. Paul taught that this portrayed that our sinful nature was removed from us in Christ (Colossians 2:11). Water baptism is a seal of righteousness in the New Covenant.  In baptism, the old man is given a water “burial.” Again Paul taught that this portrayed that our sinful nature was removed from us in Christ (Romans 6:3-6).  Thus both the Old Covenant and New Covenant clearly portray what happened to our sinful nature when we were born again.  Our sinful nature died and God completely removed it from our being.

   This is what Paul called the mystery of the gospel (Colossians 1:27).  How could Christ, who is God’s Holy One, spiritually live in a people who were born with a sinful nature?  God solved this dilemma by performing a divine heart transplant so that we would be born again.  When Christ died on the cross, He not only bore our sins on the cross; He also bore our sinful nature on the cross with Him.  Therefore, when Christ died, God exchanged our terminally sin-sick heart with His Son’s divine heart to deliver us from the power of sin and death (2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:6).  This divine operation of the cross, by which God removed our sinful nature and replaced it with Christ’s nature, is the promise of the New Covenant, the purpose of Christ’s Atonement and the power of Christ’s gospel. It was also foretold by the Old Testament prophets: “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove your heart of stone from your flesh (Ezekiel 36:26-27; see also Jeremiah 31:31-33).”

   Some Christians are confused when they read Romans Chapter 7, and think perhaps the person described in this passage is a Christian.  But Paul wrote this particular chapter to his fellow Jews (see Romans 7:1) to convince them that in Christ, they died not only to sin; they also died to the Mosaic Law.  Paul describes the frustration and anguish of a person who is not yet born again and wants to obey God but who cannot do so because of his sinful nature.  That person finally cries out, “I am a wretched man!  Who will set me free from this body of death (this sinful nature)? (Romans 7:24)”  Paul then provides the answer based on his own personal experience, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7:25)” God knew that man’s sinful nature was his Achilles heel, which Satan would use to continually snare him in sin.  This is why the Old Covenant could not accomplish God’s eternal purpose since man’s sinful nature prevented   him from truly obeying God’s commandments.  Therefore, what the Law was powerless to do because of our sinful nature; God did in the New Covenant by sending His Son who perfectly fulfilled the Law and then become sin on our behalf so that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ (Romans 8:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

   When God completed His divine heart transplant, He did not leave us with two natures.  If God had left a sinful nature in us, we would be divided in heart and mind.  We could never stand up to Satan’s attacks and accusations.  If we still had a sinful nature, the devil would always have a spiritual foothold of sin within us to defeat us.  This would have been a woefully incomplete and pitiful salvation. But thank God that Christ’s death on the cross has given us complete victory over sin!  By the cross, God delivered us not only from the penalty of sin; He also delivered us from the power of sin by destroying and removing our sinful nature.  We are now a holy new creation in Christ.  But if our sinful nature is dead and gone, then why do we still sin?  Because our spiritual mind needs to be renewed and transformed by God’s Word to the point that we act on the truth that we have died and been freed from sin (Romans 12:2; Ephesians 4:23).  This is the whole gospel that Paul practiced: “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God (Galatians 2:20).”

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” 2 Corinth 5:17

Good stuff overall (except the part about Romans 7 not including Christians)! We only have one new nature - this is who we are.  He has done this - a new creation!  The old has past away and all has been made new.  we are saints who just sometimes sin, because He did leave us with this flesh thing. (the flesh is akin to weights in building muscle - muscle needs resistance to grow)

And did you quote that from somewhere?  The best book on this topic - I consider it to be a classic - "Birthright - Christian, do you know who you are?" By David Needham.

[JimmyB]

Christians -- those born of the Spirit -- have one nature only: the Holy Spirit.  Our sin nature is dead.  We sin because we make mistakes but it is against our nature to do so.

IMHO, there is no such thing as a "carnal Christian".  I consider it a judgmental, derogatory term.

[Vine Abider]

10 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

Christians -- those born of the Spirit -- have one nature only: the Holy Spirit.  Our sin nature is dead.  We sin because we make mistakes but it is against our nature to do so.

Agree.  The flesh we have been left with is not our nature. We are saints - those with His life in us - who sometimes may sin.

[Stewardofthemystery]

26 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for the reply.  And you do bring up a very good passage in John 15:6 regarding branches that don't abide in the vine - the Father gathers them up to be burned.

So what happens with this burning?  Look at this passage in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.  If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 

There are a plethora of verses showing that we don't cease to be children of God once we are born with His eternal life in us. And there are a number of verses warning us to be careful how we build, how we conduct ourselves after becoming His children . . . our actions/works will receive fiery judgement.  However, as the passage above explains, even if ALL our works get burned up in this judgement, we ourselves will survive. We may suffer loss, but we are saved.

Here's something to consider.  When Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again, Nicodemus asked if he could climb back into his mother's womb.  He though that is what being born again meant - a distinct impossibility.  In the same way, once we are born of the Spirit, we can't go back and somehow undo that birth.  We are children born of the Most High eternally. 

CC: @SaraJane

The branches that are burned are the souls who were once in Christ, but that do not abide in the words of God, and returned back to a life of sin. They wither and die, and are then cast into hell fire.

The verses you quoted in 1 Corinthians 3 have to with “works” being tested by fire, not with souls you have fallen away from the faith back unto perdition.

[Stewardofthemystery]

4 hours ago, JimmyB said:

but it does say that born again Christians will continue to sin.  

I already gave another member the chance to quote the scriptures that say “a born again Christian will continue in sin” as you suggested above.

So by all means post the scriptures that say this.  I will be waiting….