"Christianity has become a tremendous buildup of things which were not at the beginning."

[Vine Abider]

I read that line (title of this thread) today in a devotional from T. Austin Sparks that I thought to post (see blue below).  I share this thinking to a large degree, that is, much of the practices and structure we see in Christendom was added by men, "according to their own judgement." Even to the point that buildings are revered as something so special and even spiritual in nature!  People commonly say, "I'm going to church" and to many that means the building.

(Interestingly enough, the etymology of the word "church" does actually refer more to a physical structure than the people meeting in it!  And technically the mistranslation "church" is not to be found in scripture.)

Of course, it is we, His believers, who are the house of God.  Most that are on this forum, from what I've seen, know that what is valuable is Christ in us, not any physical structures or the ordinances and traditions of man.  This devotion's author says that the only thing that matters is whether God is in a certain place - and I would add, the main way He is in a place upon this earth, is if the people there have truly invited Him in.

July 25 The Most High does not live in houses made by men. (Acts 7:48 NIV) Christianity has become a tremendous buildup of things which were not at the beginning. The Christianity which we know today is a very complicated thing. The hands of men have come upon the things of God, and men have tried to build this great thing according to their own judgment. And so we have all the confusion, all the divisions, and all the complications. It is really hard going in Christianity. Christianity has become its own great hindrance.... You will go about this country, you will go about this city, and you will see these great religious buildings with a cross at the top. And when people enter those buildings, they bow themselves; they look very reverent. And they think that this is a sacred building. If you interfere with anything there, it is called sacrilege. To God that is all nonsense. It does not mean anything at all. The only thing that matters to God is not the wonderful building and all the wonderful things inside the building, and not even the cross on the top. The one thing that matters to God is whether He is there. Is God Himself present in this place? But what about ourselves, we hear Christians who come into a meeting like this speaking about coming into the house of God. Perhaps they say when they are going to this meeting place, "I am going to the house of God." And when they pray, they say, "We are very glad to be in the house of God this morning; it is a good thing to be in the Lord's house." What makes any place the house of God? What makes this place sacred? If it is sacred at all, what makes it sacred? It is not the building, this is not a sacred building. It is not a congregation gathered here. The only thing that makes it sacred is that the Lord is present. The Lord is not interested in our places or in our congregations; He is only concerned that He may find a place for Himself where He may be present in pleasure. I wonder where the tabernacle in the wilderness is now? I expect it is buried somewhere deep under the earth. I wonder where the great temple of Solomon is now?! I think you would be wasting your time to try and find it. You see, God had buried those things.... Everything that is not of Christ is going to be dissolved. Make no mistake. This whole structure of Christianity is going to be tested according to Christ. Christianity is just going to be tested as to how far it was the work of the Holy Spirit of God according to Christ. By T. Austin-Sparks from: "That They May All Be One, Even As We Are One" - Meeting 9

 

[Solus Christus]

I got into the whole Constantine corrupted the Church trend, but upon more research he called for The Council of Nicea in the wake of heresies, and I think an Imperial Church was needed during Fall of the Western Roman Empire to deal with an age of iron. That said I am thankful Luther and others reformed The Church, getting us “Back to The Sources.”(Ad Fontes, Scripture). 

But in these dangerous times I think the current set up of churches is safer. I mean with the world in chaos and craziness would you prefer moving to a town or city and going to someone’s house for church when you have no idea who they are, no way to substantiate if they are safe and upstanding? Or would you rather go to a church building and find out that home groups and cell groups are lead by credible and upstanding people?   
 

I was in The Acts Church is best movement. But we arn’t agrarian anymore, and we do not know our neighbor like they did. So there is the issue of trust and safety that did not exist in The Early Church in the sense of Paul knew Peter, their churches knew each other and so forth. It was more small town then, now we move far say and have to introduce ourselves to a congregation that doesn’t know us, nor us them. 

I admire and emulate Early Church models, I love iHOPs. But I have cooled on hating institutional set ups, I see now its about safety and building trust and establishing credibility.  

Edited July 25, 2023 by Solus Christus

[AnOrangeCat]

12 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I read that line (title of this thread) today in a devotional from T. Austin Sparks that I thought to post (see blue below).  I share this thinking to a large degree, that is, much of the practices and structure we see in Christendom was added by men, "according to their own judgement." Even to the point that buildings are revered as something so special and even spiritual in nature!  People commonly say, "I'm going to church" and to many that means the building.

I was sort of in a conversation that went down this track a couple of days ago. I had mixed feelings about it. There was an agenda involved with the one who started it. Basically "Your Christianity is corrupt but this pagan influenced version I'm doing is okay and closer to the original." I think that's often the case when people bring up the topic. Obviously not here but more typically I've seen it used to try to undermine Christianity. It's a tricky topic to navigate because I think there's some truth to it.

12 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Of course, it is we, His believers, who are the house of God.  Most that are on this forum, from what I've seen, know that what is valuable is Christ in us, not any physical structures or the ordinances and traditions of man.  This devotion's author says that the only thing that matters is whether God is in a certain place - and I would add, the main way He is in a place upon this earth, is if the people there have truly invited Him in.

Big amen to this. From my own study of scripture I've come to see the function of believers gathering together as being for spiritual guidance, mutual support, and as a point of coordination for reaching out to the world. The building just happens to be where it takes place most often, but it's really the purpose and the people that make the church, not the other way around.

But drifting back to the original topic I agree that with regards to practices, structure, and things held as tradition there's been a lot of manmade things added, and IMO not necessarily for the better. But how about the really important things like beliefs and doctrine? Can we truly say that Christianity has been changed in that respect? I personally think not. Certainly numerous denominations of sprang up over the years, but are they truly changing the core tenets of the faith? For the most part I say no. While there are certainly exceptions that have gone off the rails I'd say mainstream Christians today overwhelmingly believe the same things as the early Christians. With the obvious exception of the more out there branches I feel like all the different denominations amount to today are different points of emphasis. That to me isn't a bad thing, it's just the body of Christ Paul talked about. Different functions and purposes but all working to do God's will.

[farouk]

32 minutes ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I was sort of in a conversation that went down this track a couple of days ago. I had mixed feelings about it. There was an agenda involved with the one who started it. Basically "Your Christianity is corrupt but this pagan influenced version I'm doing is okay and closer to the original." I think that's often the case when people bring up the topic. Obviously not here but more typically I've seen it used to try to undermine Christianity. It's a tricky topic to navigate because I think there's some truth to it.

Big amen to this. From my own study of scripture I've come to see the function of believers gathering together as being for spiritual guidance, mutual support, and as a point of coordination for reaching out to the world. The building just happens to be where it takes place most often, but it's really the purpose and the people that make the church, not the other way around.

But drifting back to the original topic I agree that with regards to practices, structure, and things held as tradition there's been a lot of manmade things added, and IMO not necessarily for the better. But how about the really important things like beliefs and doctrine? Can we truly say that Christianity has been changed in that respect? I personally think not. Certainly numerous denominations of sprang up over the years, but are they truly changing the core tenets of the faith? For the most part I say no. While there are certainly exceptions that have gone off the rails I'd say mainstream Christians today overwhelmingly believe the same things as the early Christians. With the obvious exception of the more out there branches I feel like all the different denominations amount to today are different points of emphasis. That to me isn't a bad thing, it's just the body of Christ Paul talked about. Different functions and purposes but all working to do God's will.

Good indeed to get back to Acts 2.41-42 simplicity.

[Neighbor]

 I absolutely love going to church, the building! I make no apology for that, none. For there are gathered the saints in Christ the army that is gathering to worship Yeshua in spirit under the presence of the Holy Spirit.

It is there at the building that we each rejoice, we each share, we each pray for one another's spiritual and physical well being. It is an exciting and encouraging to the mind sprit and soul time of gathering at the church to do exposition of the Bible.

It makes for a place to be refreshed, ready to go into all the world with the gospel of Jesus,  that many might be found mature at his quick return. The church building is not worhiped, it is cared for so that it is functional, clean, and sanitary.

The one I love the absolute most at this time is the one the Holy Spirit has sent me to, it is a metal warehouse in an industrial district that the local body of Christ have converted into avery pleasant facility for corporate gathering  of the local body.

Some church  buildings are indeed fancier, and there too gather  saints in Christ as called by the Holy Spirit. I tended to one for some 14 years. I loved, absolutely loved, the privilege of that assignment from God. No apologies for that, just joy to this moment in the memories of  the body that met there and still does, with now a fifth generation taking over duties and privileges.

Individuals are still there making that old building ever more sound, pleasant and even beautiful for it's purpose, not for the building  but for facilitating the worship and fellowship that  happens corporately there in the presence of the Holy Spirit. It is grand for it is a physical manifestation born of growth in the body as the fields are whitened by God.

[Michael37]

14 hours ago, Solus Christus said:

I love iHOPs

The pancakes?

[FJK]

Something to consider in our meditations:  Have the teachings of Jesus been diluted by the rituals of men?

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, FJK said:

Something to consider in our meditations:  Have the teachings of Jesus been diluted by the rituals of men?

I think the answer is in the affirmative. Real experiences of the Lord are often turned into rituals and religion - having a form, but denying the power thereof.  It's what the flesh does.  It says in essence, "OK, I can duplicate this experience outwardly and therefore I won't have a need for Him."  It may appear at the start to be quite innocent, and ones doing it may (probably) not realize that this is what they are doing, but make no mistake, sin in the flesh will seek to create a religion devoid of God Himself every time.

[Vine Abider]

5 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I was sort of in a conversation that went down this track a couple of days ago. I had mixed feelings about it. There was an agenda involved with the one who started it. Basically "Your Christianity is corrupt but this pagan influenced version I'm doing is okay and closer to the original." I think that's often the case when people bring up the topic. Obviously not here but more typically I've seen it used to try to undermine Christianity. It's a tricky topic to navigate because I think there's some truth to it.

Big amen to this. From my own study of scripture I've come to see the function of believers gathering together as being for spiritual guidance, mutual support, and as a point of coordination for reaching out to the world. The building just happens to be where it takes place most often, but it's really the purpose and the people that make the church, not the other way around.

But drifting back to the original topic I agree that with regards to practices, structure, and things held as tradition there's been a lot of manmade things added, and IMO not necessarily for the better. But how about the really important things like beliefs and doctrine? Can we truly say that Christianity has been changed in that respect? I personally think not. Certainly numerous denominations of sprang up over the years, but are they truly changing the core tenets of the faith? For the most part I say no. While there are certainly exceptions that have gone off the rails I'd say mainstream Christians today overwhelmingly believe the same things as the early Christians. With the obvious exception of the more out there branches I feel like all the different denominations amount to today are different points of emphasis. That to me isn't a bad thing, it's just the body of Christ Paul talked about. Different functions and purposes but all working to do God's will.

Yes, agree with everything you said!  It is not easy to navigate and we must be careful to not side with the accuser on this topic.

And the Lord will get His spotless bride, without any negative blemishes, etc.!  He fully knew what He was getting into when He said, "I will build My church . . ."

And you are right about using this kind of observation to promote a "superior way" someone thinks they have. I was in a group back in the 70 & 80s that bashed Christianity mercilessly, and then said, "See, we have the right way!"  I remember being with a brother who told this to a small group of Christians, who were just enjoying the Lord by singing some simple songs in public.  Fellowship ended when he told them how "The Lord has shown us a higher vision than you."  He thought he was doing the Lord's work and didn't realize how prideful and damaging that statement was!

But I don't think the author, T. Austin Sparks, had that intention.  He was just pointing out that men tend to organize things and create structure (including physical buildings) that can take the place of the fresh and living experience of Christ.  I'm not saying that all church buildings are evil manifestations of the flesh. But the desire of the flesh is to replace God whenever it can with whatever else it can, even though outwardly it appears quite good.

[Marathoner]

My old friend and teacher said something which has stuck with me from the moment I heard him say it a few weeks ago: 

There is an obsessive focus upon beliefs at the expense of conduct at play in many church organizations. Indeed, when we read the letters of the apostles --- especially Paul's --- we notice his exhortations for godly conduct in keeping with the commandments of Christ which are certainly not beyond our capability being filled with the Spirit of God.

We don't find statements such as " ...and if someone doesn't believe as you do, declare that they are a counterfeit disciple." Naturally, I'm not referring to what we deem as essentials to our faith (the Worthy SoF spells that out well). Our SoF reflects doctrine stated in the scriptures. 

James refers to the royal law which is this: love your neighbor as yourself. Paul exhorts us to be gentle, patient, meek, and to dwell upon good and worthwhile things. Peter instructs us to walk blamelessly while we sojourn in this world, avoiding the appearance of evil. We notice how the teaching of the apostles are concerned with our witness and not systematic beliefs. The essentials of our faith are simple to understand and spelled out for us so we will know what they are. 

Elevating non-essential matters to the degree that they foment strife, create division, and encourage factionalism is diametrically opposed to the teaching of the Lord and His apostles. So, someone is dispensational and someone else is not... so what?

Our unity in Christ and witness to this world that is perishing is far more important than splitting hairs and swallowing gnats.